Educate me - convince me I'm wrong.

Nothing seems to raise temperatures more on this forum than the topic of E-collars. I've considered whether or not to start another thread on this topic for some time now and my reasons for doing so are two-fold:

1) To (hopefully) encourage a response which will increase my own knowledge/understanding, and answer whether or not the use of an E-collar can ever be justified (or whether it is never ever justified, at all, under any circumstances whatsoever).

2) A bit of an excercise - I'm quite getting into reading up on dog training/behaviour (early days yet), by laying down my view and the reasoning behind it, I have a starting point, it might be interesting to review my opinion as I become better-read and see whether or not I've changed my view.



I'm reading through a bunch of books often seen recommended on here. There's so much of what I'm reading about positive reinforcement that I already agree with, I don't need convincing - I'm already there (maybe putting haltis/headcollars in the same sentence as hitting, slapping & spanking is taking things a bit too far, but in general I'm in agreement). Much of what I'm reading is just articulating what I'm already doing/how I feel.

My own preference to teach a dog to sit is as taught in clicker classes all over, initially luring the dog. It's not unusual that I see someone pushing the dogs back end down whilst saying "sit". It makes me wince a bit inside (and I'll often step in and show the owner how to lure the dog into a sit), but I wouldn't say they were physically assaulting the dog.

Have you ever physicaly touched anyone by way of communication, possibly to get their attention? If so, I'm sure that you wouldn't describe that physical contact as beating/hitting etc.

I've said previously - I've not worn an e-collar, but I have used a Tens unit for rehab,on lower levels I'd describe it as mild sensation. It could be painful if turned up to max and misused. Someone else responded that they'd found it extremely painful even on the lowest setting (I think it was for arthritis in the hand). That doesn't invalidate the Tens as a valid medical tratment, though it was not the correct treatment for that particular individual.

That's my default position - in the same sense that I don't consider all physical contact as being violent, neither am I of the opinion that any and all physical sensation caused by electric current/ electric shock must cause pain and suffering.


But

(I'll repeat what I've posted previously as it's relevant here)

And therein lies the crux of the problem with E-collars (IMO at least) - the potential for misuse. I'm quite aware that an electric shock can be painful, causing suffering & fear. And yet, despite this, I still feel that in certain cases E-collars might be a valid training tool - this view being formed by my own specific personal experiences (provided owner is shown how to use by professional so as collar is not/can not be used as anger/stress reaction).


I've got three dogs, all three have been to classes for varying amounts of time - Locky (the oldest, GSD/Husky x) has gone to classes the most. The two youngest both have excellent recall and I can stop them in their tracks chasing a squirrel/deer etc. All training +R.

Therefore, to claim that I hold the view I do because I can't/won't use +R is quite frankly nonsense.

Locky on the other hand.... in "training mode" or a class environment he does really well. Someone posted a good video of dogs doing "leapfrog", and all three of mine can do that nicely. He has a decent enough recall within a vicinty of approx 10 m (providing the distractions aren't too great or within too close a distance). I've posted previously how well he's come on.

At a distance, as described above, it's often crossed my mind "if only I could reach out and touch him to get his attention". Long line - I've used one but don't like to:

1) I once somehow got tangled up in it and ended up on crutches for approx six weeks.
2) He's often playing with other dogs and there's a risk of them getting caught up.
3) He has problems with his shoulders - sudden jerks can cause him severe pain/ cause him to limp temporarily.

I manage his situation, have to be a bit imaginative about when/where I go - he gets plenty of off lead excercise, and has a close group of doggy pals.

Yet there was a time, where had there been an e-collar trainer in the vicinty, I might well have given serious consideration to using him. Speaking hypothetically, if when I got him he was one or two instead of nine going on ten, and now three or four not eleven pushing twelve - I probably would give it serious consideration. (To ask why I would deliberately and knowingly want to hurt him is quite ridiculous - his blog is over on Big Gsd which will show why.)

It's quite possible that I try for too much with him - maybe it's his breeding, maybe it's to do with his age and a lack of training in the early years. If I'm honest, I'm not sure I'd actually have it in me to use one on him - why not if I'm so sure that a collar won't cause him pain? For the same reason that it makes me wince when I see someone trying to push a dog into a sit. But I don't think that detracts from from my opinion that under circumstances as described, an owner should have the right to seek out and use "professional help" of this kind.

In summary:
1) Default position is that not all electric shocks cause pain.
2) I recognise the potential for misuse.
3) E-collar might in some instances be a valid traing tool for certain behaviours.
4) Owners should be allowed to seek profesional guidance on their use.

I realise there might well be some contradictions in there - would a good, experienced, professional trainer need to use an e-collar, and there's not anything on learning theory - so, if I'm wrong, educate me, and convince me.

Please - if you use e-collars (Adam !), I don't want to hear that side, I'm hoping for a well reasoned rebuttal. Similarly, if you hate the very idea of using an e-collar, consider them to be instruments of torture then fair enough, but I'd appreciate it if you could keep your comments positive!

If you're still here, thanks for reading, over to you.

...knew yours and ap's pm'ing was leading somewhere

Quote !

I've said previously - I've not worn an e-collar, but I have used a Tens unit for rehab,on lower levels I'd describe it as mild sensation.


I have used TENS too in labour , whilst in labour due to pain didnt even notice the TENS machine and turned up to full whack, when labour complete and beautiful daughter delivered , I couldnt get the TENS machine off quick enough due to the electric shock on my back so I can only conclude that an e collar on a dog would give a similar most unpleasant sensation and therefore IMO not a positive method of training !

sorry i dont know your full story, but personally, dont think thats a good reason at all. JMO. Its to suit you not the dog as far as i can tell.

theres not really much to be said though on the above. well at least not whats been said else where

The only time I would ever think, just trying to think of any situation, of even considering such a method is if the dog is likely to endanger itself.

But no dog should be put in that position. So therefore no need.

Theres always a better way.

JMO

The simple fact as I see it

If a collar didnt hurt it wouldnt work
a mild annoyance would not be more interesting than the enviroment - the dogs are avoiding pain
If it works as quickly as people say it does then the removal of the pain must be so nice as to be better than the best treat/game in the whole world, and the pain must be great enough to cut tru the natural dirives and focus of the dog

a gentle annaoyance would not possibly have the amazing results people say they have

it sounds like you are doing great, you understand your dog and are willing to work with them
I agree I just dont get on with long lines either - Mia can run 100m in the blink of an eye - so I am better off finding big safe places where she can run free - and I keep training the recal in all situations

Look into vibrating collars - much nicer and are used for deaf dog recall so are IMO more effective.

And the vibration will not hurt your dog!

You silly man listening to your head - and AP ..tut tut! Whatever happened to heart over head?

Sorry got to break it down
Not true, talk about breeding and it gets just as hot


I think as time goes on things get thought about more, just like in 'human' terms, it use to be okay for criminals, psychiatric patients, to get pain inflicted on them, ECT a barbaric form of electrical torture, it may have had its uses and still does but now humanely done under aesthetic if they deem it necessary, with consent.
Just like with dog training, something isn't working is it okay to inflict pain on them and try to train them with physical punishment?? They can't speak up and say that hurts or say please stop. We are their guardians and have a responsibility to them.
If you believe that it is okay to hit or send electrical currents through them so be it, but studies that show a scientific way of how dogs respond to e-collars to be negatively affecting dogs and the body language that can be subtle can be a big indicator that the stimuli is nothing other than painful (or negative if you prefer)

Never hurts to keep an open mind and learn, it is when we think we have become experts is when things can really go backwards.


Books are a good resource with training any animals, it is up to us to implement what we will use and won't use .

It is about how to do some things as affectively as we can, frustration can lead to things such as pushing there bum down, that is not assault but things can be done easier at times than we think, food motivated dogs are great dogs I have seen people try to get their dog to sit and they use that much force and the dog resist more and more to the push downwards, I do wonder how much the dog is hurting.
I think we all have and no it is not hitting or beating anyone, but a touch is not a painful stimuli, if you got one of those hand zappers (don't know the name of them ) from a joke shop and used that to get their attention, I think their words to you would not be pleasant.

But as you say a TENS machine is for medical treatment not training, there in lies the big difference, just like rehab for a broken bone, it is there to get the body functioning property that may cause pain but the exercises are not meant to inflict the pain, the pain is caused by injury.
One other thing about e-collars there are no standards on the electrical impulse emitted, so even if one is 'mild' there is no telling if another will be stronger in current
It may not cause 'pain' or 'suffering' as some have suggested before, but how can we ever tell, signs on a dog can be virtually internal and we may miss the signs, why take the risk when there are other solutions

You talk of your own frustration, if someone is not doing as we would can we go and slap them for it No, sometimes we have to accept frustrations in life, I am sure you don't do everything your dog wishes you would do, I know I don't I wonder if Louis would zap me if he could because I stop throwing a toy or ball after the tenth time

Some days you win some days you lose, by the sounds no harm became of him not doing as you wanted, it was just that you got frustrated (as we all can get at times) but if you had of zapped him or sprayed him, I bet you would have felt bad and on reflection deemed it unnecessary

Yup

I just don't believe they are necessary, all dog breeds have instincts, why can't it be about education rather than trying to find any solution that works no matter the implement? Some have said the banning of e-collars is a knee jerk reaction, I say bull dust, they have been around long enough to have been misused, and studies to have found they have negative implications to dogs. Just as in the history of anything, there have been times when it has been accepted to use certain devices but over time awareness shows it is not necessarily humane.
No professional dog trainer can stop a dog owner getting frustrated and misusing it, that is one part of the problem (other than I don't like them at all), a trainer can't watch over the use of it, and you also have to look at the trainers own ethics and morals when hiring one, they are human as well and may think as they are called 'trainers' 'behaviouralists' that it gives them a better knowledge and authority on how to use them, where really unless their minds are open to new ways, and it is not always down to the dog being at fault, and educating owners, not just resorting their tool of choice

You kind of answer your own questions on this, you don't want to use a long line because of the negative impact on Locky, why risk a device that is not +R, and its sole purpose is to inflict some amount of discomfort (I am being generous in my wording ) on a dog to attempt it to stop a behaviour you are not wanting, the risk being, a dog does get confused by what is causing the 'stimuli', I know some say it doesn't happen, just because they have never encountered the problem, that is very blind sighted. It has been said many times dogs to not think as we do, and can not reason the stimuli, again studies have shown a risk of dogs becoming more aggressive with the use of e-collars, as they attempt to stop the painful stimuli.
Lochy has years of conditioning that doesn't get fixed all together, that would take years to reduce, just as we get conditioned in our thoughts and actions over our lifetime, the longer they are there the more ingrained they are. Lochy would be an old man in dog years are you going to get a person of that age and try to get them to change

Pain is a relative term, use what words we will for the sensation the e-collars emit, it is negative and it is not to just get a dogs attention, it is to stop a behaviour that may be inherent in them, say I get a cattle dog and it chases cows, a Cattle dog, is breed for that, there is some instinct involved, are we not trying to suppress a behaviour that is instinctual that have been around for thousands of years? To suppress a behaviour is not necessarily fixing it, it can lay dormant and come out when we least want it to, and being lulled into a false sense of security we have 'fixed' a problem that has taken centuries to be ingrained is just foolish IMO
The misuse you talk of is all to apparent, and I have seen it first hand and wish I had my time over and would kick him when it hurts, I have never seen a dog more confused, trying to figure out what he wanted, frozen by the stimuli, and unable to get any further, the only thing I can defend myself for watching this happen is, I walked up took the dog lead and the remote and said I think enough is enough, the dog isn't going to get it and you are just sending the dog backwards and are achieving nothing, the poor dog, every time the guy came near her after that cringed. I wish I had been older and more determined in my beliefs as I know he would have got a painful stimuli to stop hurting that dog.

The validation of e-collars as a training tool, I don't agree with, I think if people have a dog that doesn't do as they want or have shocking recall despite their best efforts is a poor reason, know your dog, know its limitations, allow the dog to have pitfalls, every other animal does, should we expect dogs to be different
As for seeking professional help with your dog, go for it, if you allow them to use e-collars, fine I guess, but there are enough ways to hurt a dog without having a device made for that sole intent. And would not be paying money for someone to show me that and I believe the outlawing of them reasonable.

I get contradictions I do it often myself, as sometimes to keep an open mind, takes seeing it from different sides and different points of view which involves contradicting oneself and changing seat , once a decision has been made though it is much easier as we have our own conclusion that we live by the best we can and it is no longer needed to be looking from it at all angles

I am now I hope you are
I could sprout off the studies and the reasoning behind my thoughts, I have written them on other e-collar threads but in a whole I have made my decision on them and the above is my conclusion
My last thought on e-collars was on the link
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php...97#post2087297

Just to add, I am not trying to convince you, you are wrong, that is your own choice to decide if you use them or not, but they are banned in some countries and that choice has been taken away, which I am happy about and can't wait until more countries follow suit, then the choice will be taken away even more so. No one can convince you, you are wrong, it is only when you decide what is right or wrong that you will be convinced they either have merit or not. IMO they have no merit

My hubby has a tens machine....he asked me to get it for him and he chooses to use it.

Upto now my dogs have never shown me that they want to use a E-Collar.

There I rest my case


I have 5 dogs, part of the training is frustration and tears...
getting it wrong, getting it right. Best part of training ''the trust'' that follows, a dog that needs no ''hands on''... ''no E collar'' ''No Choke chains'' etc.,
beauty of a dog running back on recall......it wants to come back cus it '' luv's you'' your special to it and it is special to you

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I have had loads of dogs of different breeds and usually done various sports/activities with them to a greater or lesser degree. I have also worked with many and various rescue dogs in the kennel enviroment.

It never crossed my mind to get any of them to come back using an electric shock. My problem is usually that I can't lose them I have used long lines on dogs and I have used an air spray collar on my collie when he took off from the garden to round up the sheep in the fields around the house. At the time I was training him and had clicker and titbits in my hand. Given the same situation I would do the same thing again---but I wouldn't imagine that situation would arise again. Never say never though. I have also used short lines on dogs who wouldn't come quite close enough when called and who had collar phobias, it doesn't take long to teach them its OK to come in to gentle hands. One of the best seminars I went to was an agility trainer who kept stressing the importance of gentle hands.

I still find it unbelievable that anyone would use an electric shock to teach a dog to do the basic stuff that it takes rescue dogs 5 mins with a clicker and titbits to pick up and begin to learn.

Moving on from the basics to spins, twirls, walk back, face away, back through legs, front through legs, beg, paws, balance jump fences, stop on contacts, follow track, bring me object with human scent on, find drugs/explosives, find lost human, lost sheep, herd sheep, retrieve anything I ask, distance control, sendaways etc etc.......................Why when so many people enjoy the experience of teaching their dog these things by making it fun would anyone feel the need to use shocks?

I just can't see the point. Training is trust.

Can you?

rune

I really can't see that any useful purpose is served by starting yet another thread on the subject of e collars when there is already a current thread on the subject and a search will show a number of previous threads where e collars are discussed in depth.

For anyone in doubt about whether or not e collars should be used below is the synopsis of a presentation by David Ryan on the negative impacts of training dogs using an electric shock collar , I think it covers most aspects of the subject.

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/negative-impacts-training-dogs-using-electric-shock-collar/