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Vicki
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Location: In a land far, far away
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09-11-2010, 07:28 AM
I'd have him checked by the vet as a first step...... if he's in pain for any reason, this could be why he bit.....

*Hugs* - it's a horrible situation to be in.....
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IsoChick
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09-11-2010, 08:13 AM
Poor you, poor child that was bitten and poor George!

I would say a vet check to rule out any injuries etc firstly. As above, a vet won't be able to give you any advice on behavioural issues, so I wouldn't bother asking them.

It would be good if you could speak to the family again and get some further info. Of course, if the child was alone with the puppy at the time (which should never happen!) you may never get a straight story off them.

If the pup had been to a training class, he was probably tired and a bit grouchy - anything the child did could have provoked a growl and a snap, and a child would not have been able to read to signs, as an adult would.

Potentially aggressive dogs can be managed - my 2 (male Boxers) aren't particularly child friendly (way too boisterous and licky). If my nieces and nephews come to visit, the dogs are put in the kitchen behind a dog gate and given a kong or pigs ear to amuse them. It's not the end of the world.

Max has bitten me in the face before (only a few months ago) - he growled, and I didn't mvoe, and he snapped and my face got in the way. No big deal - as a grown-up, I should have read the signs better.

IMO - Since George is still only a puppy, and this incident doesn't sound like an 'attack'; I suspect that you won't need to have him PTS, just ensure that he is given lots of extra training and rehomed with a family who have older, or no, children. Find a trainer who is APDT qualified and give them a call/go and see them. They should be able to advise you on the steps to take.
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jem fong
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09-11-2010, 09:24 AM
I have raised a Rottweiler and trained her myself, i think my first concern would be that they left the child with the dog unsupervised - if he said he heard the growl but doesn't know what happened that is what i would assume. neither Rottweiler or chihuahua should be left with a child unattended. But as we don't know exactly what happened we cant point the finger. my guess would be the child some how over stepped the mark - large breeds especially should also be trained to give personal space to children, they can play but no tugging clothes or jumping etc. its hard work mainly because all this breed seems to want to do is play but if you stick to it, it does work.

It is very unusual for a Rotty of 7mnths to show that kind of aggression - if you ask me this only to happens (if the dog has friendly parents) when the owners have been heavy handed or smacked the dog. So make sure when moving around him not to move your hands to quickly, because if he has been smacked he might think you will too.

At the same time try to remember that if you don't trust him and you are showing that you are unsure of him it will encourage the defense response to bite.

good luck I am sure he is just miss understood x
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Moobli
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09-11-2010, 09:42 AM
First of all, try not to panic and do anything rash. A vet check is a good thing - to find out whether the pup is suffering any pain or illness that the family don't know about. However, vets are not behaviourists, so I would be looking at getting some help from Rottie rescue or a behaviourist who has experience with Rotties.

Where is Shona??? (For those that don't know, Shona is a Dogsey member who breeds, trains and rescues Rotties and has a wealth of experience and knowledge).

Secondly, and very importantly, you need to try to find out what happened (as far as possible) that made George snap at the boy. Also, what injuries (how severe) have been suffered?

As the breeder, I do feel it is now your responsibility to help George. He needs time to adjust to being taken from his home and you need to get in some experienced and knowledgeable help in assessing him and helping him find a suitable new home (Rottie rescue would probably be the best people to contact initially).

Whereabouts in the country are you, and someone may be able to give you a Rottie contact.
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ClaireandDaisy
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09-11-2010, 09:50 AM
Well, since you`ve only owned dogs for 3 years I suggest you get in touch with someone who has more knowledge. A good behaviourist would be able to help because tbh both you and the owner don`t sound like you have much background in dog training. This is an observation from what you post - not a criticism.
I would not give a novice owner aggression advice on the internet in case they misunderstand.
For instance - the owner `corrected` the pup when it nipped. I assume you agree wuth this. That is a dangerous procedure, particualrly with a guarding breed. .
Have a read of some good dog training books - The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson is a good place to start. The Dog Aggression Workbook by James O`Heare is the aggression `bible` but I doubt the pup is aggressive - just badly handled.
And perhaps think about halting your breeding programme till you have more experience.
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Dobermonkey
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09-11-2010, 10:49 AM
no expert but one of my first questions would be is 'you say you 'correct' george when he nips, how do you correct him?'

im sure a lot of people who know no better would think nothing of smacking a pup across the nose which can only lead to problems in my opinion (assuming this is how they corrected him) and can make a dog 'snappy'

perhaps a conversation with the 'trainer' at the class that george goes to for their opinion?

I would not value a vets opinion about behavioural issues based on a 10min consultation.

Id ask a Rottie expert

Hope little G gets a clean bill of health and a nice new home x
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Delos
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09-11-2010, 11:07 AM
I'll probably get flamed for this post but if after the vet check there is no medical reason for the dogs reaction. I would seriously be considering the PTS option. Once a dog bites a person once (if there is no obvious medical or pain reaction) in likelihood it will do it again.

We are all dog owners here and we have to take responsibility for that. Any dog that bites a child (or adult for that matter) puts all dogs in Danger. This where we get the control orders and people scared of dogs from and some breeds withy dodgy reputations.

Even if there is no obvious reason for the attack and no medical reason. I would not keep the dog or the possibility of it harming another child. To risk another child is not an option. No matter how much you try and limit it's exposure to children there is always the risk the dog could get out. Also I would (and I assume the OP wouldn't) pass a possible aggressive dog onto someone else (your just giving someone else that problem.

Dog owners have a habit of saying it's not the dogs fault etc. In reality we have companion animals it's our responsibility to ensure there wellbeing and that they are safe to be around others. Children poke and prod dogs. That's what children do so they cannot be blamed.

I'm afraid if the dog is a possible danger the PTS option needs to be seriously considered no matter how upsetting. As if another attack happened and you could have stopped it could you forgivr yourself.
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ClaireandDaisy
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09-11-2010, 11:19 AM
I wouldn`t kill a puppy because it hadn`t been handled well. I would love to ask this breeder why he is selling to people with small children who know nothing about dogs though.
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krlyr
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09-11-2010, 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by Delos View Post
I'll probably get flamed for this post but if after the vet check there is no medical reason for the dogs reaction. I would seriously be considering the PTS option. Once a dog bites a person once (if there is no obvious medical or pain reaction) in likelihood it will do it again.

We are all dog owners here and we have to take responsibility for that. Any dog that bites a child (or adult for that matter) puts all dogs in Danger. This where we get the control orders and people scared of dogs from and some breeds withy dodgy reputations.

Even if there is no obvious reason for the attack and no medical reason. I would not keep the dog or the possibility of it harming another child. To risk another child is not an option. No matter how much you try and limit it's exposure to children there is always the risk the dog could get out. Also I would (and I assume the OP wouldn't) pass a possible aggressive dog onto someone else (your just giving someone else that problem.

Dog owners have a habit of saying it's not the dogs fault etc. In reality we have companion animals it's our responsibility to ensure there wellbeing and that they are safe to be around others. Children poke and prod dogs. That's what children do so they cannot be blamed.

I'm afraid if the dog is a possible danger the PTS option needs to be seriously considered no matter how upsetting. As if another attack happened and you could have stopped it could you forgivr yourself.
Do you have any statistics on how likely it is for a dog to be a "repeat offender"? We don't even know why the dog bit so even if it wasn't through a health issue, we have no idea whether the dog was pushed further than it (as a young dog, so one that's not fully mature mentally) could handle. You can't say a dog that's bitten once will 100% bite again, just like you can't say a dog that's never bitten will never bite in its life. Surely you could argue that any dog has the capability of biting amd it's our responsibility to have every dog euthanised as we'd never forgive ourselves if a child was bitten.
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ClaireandDaisy
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09-11-2010, 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by krlyr View Post
Do you have any statistics on how likely it is for a dog to be a "repeat offender"? We don't even know why the dog bit so even if it wasn't through a health issue, we have no idea whether the dog was pushed further than it (as a young dog, so one that's not fully mature mentally) could handle. You can't say a dog that's bitten once will 100% bite again, just like you can't say a dog that's never bitten will never bite in its life. Surely you could argue that any dog has the capability of biting amd it's our responsibility to have every dog euthanised as we'd never forgive ourselves if a child was bitten.
good post. Any dog can bite. Killing a pup for reacting to poor handling is as daft as shooting a horse if you fall off it.
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