My dog doesn't do 'dictionary definitions' when it comes to learning about the world around him - so I don't, either! I believe that in order to teach your dog adequately about the world in which he's going to live, you must take him out into it, and let him get experience of what's actually out there, whether that's other dogs, people, situations or inanimate objects. It's all part and parcel of the same process.

Yep, when Ludo had OCD and got barged by a chocolate labrador at obedience training he got very very nervy (didn't help him when the trainer shouted at him for warning the dog away the next time either)

Consequently that venue and that dog (and any that looked like her) became nogo areas for quite a while. He got his confidence back by standing him next to her in the agility queue and treat feeding them both together (he couldn't run due to the sore shoulder but the atmosphere gave him confidence) and then when he was happy around her there we were then able to tackle things at the obedience venue. Anywhere else it would have been a complete nono

Put simply, the excitement of possible agility gave him the confidence to deal with his fear because he was focusing on something 'more important'

With regardshe working dog thing, I agree it is very impressive to see them totally focused despite being in a total alien situation.

With pets I think we can try and emulate this by using alot of prey drive in training and getting them very obedient.
At least with the obedience if you can have the dog sit/come/heel when you ask regardless of the ''scary stuff''
You can prevent flight and fight behaviour and habituate the dog as you go along.

Quick point can be difficult to motivate some unsocilised dogs with toys as they just don't know anything about them.

Adam

In my experience, the secret to resolving any fear based issue is to switch on the "happy side" of the brain, as often and for as long, as possible.

Many fears are at some level, biological addictions. As are many other positive emotional states. Becoming addicted to positive feelings is a process.......Agility, sheep work , ball games, retrieve and scent work, swimming, bone chewing, can all fall into that process very usefully!

I think we should call it Dave, or Fred, much more user friendly name.

I couldn't agree more with every word Mish has said here, it's for me too!

A puppy has to be socialised to a certain extent, but it learns far more from me and the other adult dog I always like to have back at home when we get a new puppy. I have always let them play with my older dogs, they teach them more than I ever could alone, especially in the manners department I'm sure of that.

I don't feel it as necessary to introduce the young dog/puppy to every single situation, because I think once it's learned to trust in YOU, the way YOU react to different "stuff" (bikes,joggers etc.) then loud bangs etc. then it has every faith in you that everything is alright, there's no need to worry. Only this morning, we were up on our village green, the glass recycling lorry was at the big house next to the green, it emptied a big bin of glass, it made a horrendous noise, it even frightened me but did my dog worry?? Nah! She was startled initially just like I was, then she realised it was nothing to worry about because I wasn't worried, I grabbed her tuggy ball, we played, all was fine, but she could well have shot off into the road if she didn't have 100% trust in me perhaps! We've never been introduced to a dust cart emptying glass in her life and yet it was fine. Same with the joggers and the bikes, we've never "done" the training to leave them, it hasn't been necessary, she leaves them, ignores them! This morning we saw our first ever pheasant, which was oh so interesting and exciting as it tried to fly and shot under the barbed wire fence......a quick grab of her collar, a little "chat" and she set off along the way offlead, and ignored them!

You can't possibly introduce a young puppy to everything it's going to meet out in the big wide world, but other dogs are the most important TO be introduced to, so that they learn how to interract, learn body language, dog etiquette etc. etc. but in a controlled way, i.e. I would never have let my puppy play with a bolshy, bargy, over playful dog or puppy who itself hadn't been taught how to interract properly. I was very picky and choosy who she could and couldn't play with and I still am to this day, coz I also believe they can pick up other dog's bad habits purely by being allowed to be in contact with on a regular basis. I know that to be a fact because I have seen it myself with my current youngster picking up on my older dog's bad habits, i.e. whingeing in the car especially! When the youngster is on her own in the car, you don't hear a peep out of her you forget she's there, until you open the door to start your walk, and even then, everything is quiet. When I've got the older dog with me, she copies him, she whinges in the car, she scrabbles at the door and she's a nightmare when they get out, just because of his excitement, it's rubbed off! Then she copies his lack of recall it works, but it isn't instant like when she's on her own, because the older dog ignores me So if a youngster can pick up on bad habits like this, then in my view, they can also pick up on bad habits from other dogs they meet, but probably more on a regular basis than a one off, and that is why I'm still picky and choosy about her playmates, and why I really don't care whether or not she even plays from one week to another out on our walks, because she has ME, I'm her main focus in life and that's the way I like it. From day one she was allowed to interract, be offlead, play with whoever we met that I liked, but once that was done and I knew she had learned what she needed to learn, it's me who decides now.

Well said! I completely agree with this, its exactly what I was trying to get across.

I meant no offence by my comment, but I'd already pointed out earlier in this thread that there's a difference between socialisation & habituation. And in order for you to know what to do & how to do it, isn't it better to understand how dogs learn & how best to teach & help them?

You may have handled things perfectly well as far as your dog is concerned, & if that's all that concerns you, all well & good. But to expect all dogs to be ok with the "take him out into it, and let him get experience of what's actually out there" method could be asking for trouble with some dogs & could lead to the development of fears & phobias.

There is a lot of difference between socialisation & habituation. As I said earlier in this thread, socialisation is the process whereby dogs learn how to communicate with other dogs, people & other species that they live with, or come into contact with regularly. Habituation is the process whereby the dog learns that certain things can be ignored, they are neutral, they don't predict reward or punishment. This would include things like passing traffic, aircraft noises (esp for those that live near airports), the washing machine, etc etc.

Surely the more we learn & understand about how we treat & teach our pets, the better. So whilst you may dismiss this as just "dictionary definitions", it can be really helpful to others that are interested in helping lots of different dogs & to those who enjoy the science of learning theory. To just class these very different scenarios as "part and parcel of the same process" can be very misleading.

I think we're getting off the point, here - I thought the question being asked in this thread was "puppy socialization" a good thing, or not? I presume we are a talking about a normal, healthy puppy, who has left it's Mother/siblings and is settling into a new home - not an adult dog with a phobia!

My answer is that if you bond properly with your puppy, and then you take him out and about with you once he's had his vaccinations, socialization will happen naturally - if you teach your puppy, using positive reinforcement techniques, the right way to react to new situations AND people and other dogs/animals as you encounter them, there's no need for a seperate 'socializing' class.

I don't think it matters to the dog whether this 'method' falls under the definition of socialization or habituation - and it doesn't matter to me, either, just so long as he comes back from his walk safe and happy!

Separate 'puppy socialization' classes don't actually have much benefit at all as far as I can see - it's too 'false', it's not a real reflection of what the pup will encounter in the real world. A puppy needs to learn that different dogs (and people!) will react to him differently in different environments - a dog in a vet's waiting room could react entirely differently to an enthusiastic puppy, than one on a woodland-walk, for example.

IMO, the most important thing a puppy needs to learn is that his owner is the most important thing. I can't see that 'puppy-romp-and-roll' sessions teach that, either.

well said. totally agree