Hi and welcome to Dogsey
To answer your question, its a no then from here.
My dogs don't eat the same time as us and I don't ever think about eating crackers/pretending to eat before them. When I feed Im feeding 5 cats first the dogs just lie on the kitchen floor and wait until the cats have gone outside with thier dishes, then its thier turn, after being mauled and screamed at by 5 cats I doubt I'd be thinking of doing AB with the dogs
All dogs go through doors before me, never really think about that as a problem, all sit on the chairs/sofa and I've been known to lie on the floor But if I want the chair or sofa they willingly move off.
And they have all at one time or another stood at the top of the stairs looking down at me, but again if I say come down they do it.

Basic's/rules here are calm calm calm, no hitting or threatening and if one or the other needs telling twice then so be it Patience is a virtue.
Come to think of it I don't feed in age order either...I feed as to whoever's bowl comes to hand the quickest

They seem a balanced bunch

I pretty much have a similar take on my dog as youngstevie.

Dahlia eats first. It's just easier to prepare her food and let her go eat it while cooking ours. Sometimes she eats right before us, sometimes I put it down as we begin eating, sometimes she'll eat a half hour or more before us.

She gets to sit by the table and stare at us. As long as she isn't being obnoxious, she can hope all she wants. And yes, she does get treats from our plates. We tend to eat lean meats and she'll get some of that (sometimes we'll even cook her her own, cut it up, and put it in with her food -- she especially loves fish!).

She always goes out of the door first. It's just easier. She almost always walks ahead of me on walks. I like to be able to keep an eye on her. If she's behind me, I can't see her reactions to things. Plus she's pretty. I like watching her.

Al of the furniture is fair game. I have, on occasion, come into the living room to find my recliner with a dog on it. I'll go sit elsewhere so she can have her comfy spot.

I let her choose which way SHE wants to go on walks. I let her tell me when she wants to go out for a walk (she does this by coming and sitting in front of you and then putting a paw on you).

And you know what? My dog is awesome. No growling, no resource guarding. She's calm and sweet, loves everyone, allows other dogs into the house, lets cats into the house. She doesn't even bark when people knock on the door.

Hello KW, appreciate your questions here. the four elements ar:
1, gesture eating...being the provider
2, the walk/hunt...who walks who?
3, who protects and takes charge in face of danger,
4, Reuniting after separation...ignore dog for the first few minutes

Things like walking through doors first and tips but not part of the four basic elements. I know Jan Fennell too doesn't discourage people from allowing dogs on sofas.

Hope this clarifies, X

That's brilliant ~ I'd not seen that thread (before I joined) but it just sums up what a load of old nonsense all this pack leader rubbish is.

JF's methods are not for me ~ they don't make sense, have absolutely no scientific backing & it's no more than a catchy name for the same old, same old twaddle that's been spouted since Barbara Woodhouse first appeared on TV.

Same as others, my dogs eat before me ~ it's just easier for me. They eat, they chew on some bones, they sleep. I eat in peace & quiet with no drooling dogs staring at my plate.

Generally my dogs go through doors/gates etc first ~ if they get there first. If I get there first, I go through first, with one exception ~ if I don't know what's on the other side & there's a possibility that something dangerous or small & fluffy could be there, then I ask them to wait till I've checked the coast is clear.

My dogs sleep where they like, they have the run of the whole house so sometimes they sleep on the bed, sometimes the floor, sometimes on a sofa & very occasionally on the expensive dog beds I bought them. I allow this because I don't always know where they feel safe & comfortable, I don't always know if they're feeling hot or a bit chilly ~ so I leave it to them to decide where's most comfortable at that time. But if I happen to want to sit where they are, then either they move or we share ~ I've spent a lot of time lying on dog beds lately!!

thanks surya, but no, its just muddying the water even more

As you still arent just telling me what you actually did,
which is what is exactly what i just exaplined in my last post
As in why is it that AB people just talk around the houses, but never actually tell you what they do?

You asked earlier why people dont like AB.....well, there's one reason for you...cant you see that anyone would be suspicious of anything that constantly doesnt explain itself properly?

For example, i train dogs, and yes, i believe my training relates to the inner workings, nature, and instincts of dogs.
But when my most recent client said how did i stop their springer spaniel pulling on the lead, i didnt just repeat in different fashions how i tuned into him and used his nature for a premackian reinforcement schedule (which i did), I explained the concepts whilst telling them every time he didnt pull he got released to sniff in the bushes as his reward.

I didnt say JF uses all of the same old list from the top dog procedures, i said i want to know which ones
she chose.

So, the straightforward question is:

1. Gesture eating...what did you do?? (you already told us you never used the AB cracker from bowl technique)
This kind of implies you are referring to eating before your dog?
2. The walk/hunt....what did you do??
This kind of implies its something to do with your dog pulling on the lead in front of you?
Not going thru doors before you?
3. Who protects etc....what did you do??
In fact, this phrase doesnt even give any indication at all whats its about.
4. Reuniting...ignoring dog when you get home.
Yes....this one DOES tell you what you did

The reason why its important for ANY trainer to be clear and open about what and why you do what you do is because if you dont give your students/clients the proper information, they wont have the opportunity to ask proper challenging or probing questions, which is their right.

(People whom tend to guard information whilst attempting to persuade people are usually referred to as brainwashers or cults.)

As a teacher yourself, Im sure you would already understand all of that.

Why are you not the provider by giving the dog the food? I find one of the easiest ways of bonding rescue dogs with new owners is to hand feed the dog----most have time for that if nothing else!

Who walks who is training IMO.

Protects is a good one but hardly new in any shape or form. Judging from the video clip I saw of JF avoiding other dogs when hers were on lead it doesn't work too well for her!

Ignoring some dogs when you come in is mental cruelty and is an appalling thing to do.

rune

Hi Suraya. Please don't take this as any criticism of you or your beliefs, but there really isn't any sense or scientific backing for those four "elements" that JF uses.

1. "Gesture eating....being the provider" ~ why does the owner need to eat first? Dogs know that their owners provide the food (unless they happen to scavenge something left lying around!) so what's the purpose of pretending to eat something before your dogs do? All it conveys to the dog is that the owner eating is a precursor for the dog getting it's own food ~ so you end up with twice the amount of drooling/staring at your plate

2. "the walk/hunt....who walks who?" ~ well actually we all go out together. The dogs love it because they know they'll meet their friends (human & canine), they have fun, they swim, chase rabbits, play ball, investigate lots of smells, use their brains, work things out & solve problems etc etc. There's no evidence that domestic dogs see going for a walk is akin to a pack of wolves going hunting & my dogs definitely don't think going for a walk means catching their supper

3. "who protects & takes charge in the face of danger" ~ well this depends on what the danger is & the location, & I've certainly seen different dogs react in very different ways depending on the circumstance or perceived danger. I do recognise that it can be good practice to teach your dog to look to you if they are worried by something ~ but this means teach ~ it is not something that comes naturally to dogs. The prime motivation for all animals when faced with danger is self-preservation & if a dog is faced with what it perceives as potentially life-threatening, then it's likely that the adrenalin rush will take over & a dog certainly wouldn't wait to see what you ask it to do.

4. "reuniting after separation....ignore the dog for the first few minutes" ~ why? This isn't something that wolves do, it isn't something that other wild canids do & is certainly not a natural behaviour for our domestic pets. All wild canids greet each other after a separation ~ this is perfectly natural & makes sense for a species that lives as a socially-adhesive group. They are reaffirming the bond, sharing communal scents, gaining information about each other & where they've been. Other group-living species do it too, e.g. lions, horses etc. It is an evolutionary advantageous strategy for group living species. So any link to what wild canids do in JF's "ignore your dog" when you return home, is completely wrong. And why would any dog owner that cares for his/her dog want to ignore their dog when they return home? Your dog is pleased to see you ~ at least acknowledge that ~ it does not do any harm & certainly doesn't alter any perceived hieracrchy between dog & owner. In fact ignoring your dog & going against normal canine behaviour is probably far more worrying & confusing for the dog than just stopping for a few minutes to greet them.

I suspect this last one probably stems from the fact that some dogs gets too hyped up & excited by their owner's return, so we get all the jumping up, mad rushing about, possibly barking etc that goes with excited behaviour. Some owners find this annoying/unacceptable or a nuisance if they have their hands full of shopping. But the simple solution is to teach your dog to sit when greeting you, or to grab a soft toy to help it calm down, not to ignore your dog completely!

Funnily enough, on the canine behaviour qualification I did, one of the homework questions was to critique an extract from a popular dog behaviour book. It didn't take most of us long to realise that the extract was from JF's book We had to critique it from both learning theory & ethology perspectives, to show what the dog is likely to learn, & whether this fits in with the domestic dog ethogram. It was great fun

Thats something I agree with Rune about, taking on rescues which I have, some have had fear issues and when I have walked in they shied away/hide/tuck into a corner.......I have two here that used to do that, to overcome this I have encouraged them to me as soon as I opened the door.....to see them now run and greet me with overwhelming enthusiasum is wonderful. I wouldn't want to ignore that

Me neither . I think it's so lovely to know that your dogs are pleased to see you.

One of my dogs (a rescue) was similar in that she would come to greet me, all wiggly, grinning but then would shy away, then come closer, then shy away. It was a perfect demonstration of conflict behaviour, probably brought about by being put through some dominance-reduction type programme. Lots of other things in her behaviour that came to light over the first few months I had her also fitted in with that theory as well.

I've always provided a box full of soft toys for my dogs, & very quickly Wilma learned that holding a soft toy in her mouth makes her feel better & more confident. Now she's very happy to come right up to me (& others that she knows) & have a cuddle ~ no more shying away

Champa used to grin in appeasement whenever I came in---I know he had been destructive so I think he was expecting a clout!

He doesn't grin much at all now.

Maybe I should worry that it is because he doesn't regard me as a leader.......................

Heigh ho!

rune