Welcome to Dogsey

Hi all, thank you for the welcome messages.

The reason for my original message about AB was that i was a little concerned about some of the posts about it and to give another view. Of course AB is not all new...what is? "The secret of originality is to hide your sources." Said Mark Twain

I noticed also there seemed to be some sarcasm, which doesn't really help communication.

be well, Suryacitta

LOL---the sources weren't hidden very well.

Welcome, I didn't realise you were new.

I wouldn't have thought a BC would need AB---was he/she a bit of a problem?

Pics are nice, lots of BC fanatics on here!

rune

why are you concerned about posts re AB?

The majority of trainers donrt have much time for AB, for sound reasons really.
They have all been given plenty of times before, on other threads you can search

At least on this thread, i wasnt actually being sarcastic, i was being straight.

There is no such canine behaviour philosophy called amichien bonding really, that is just a constuct that ~JF~ came up with (she is a francophile).

The actual training is based upon unscientific and disproven theories of wolf and dog behaviour using a very old programme of rank based rules.
That's why its quite easy to tell if you are doing AB by mistake, as the rules are very specific and must be applied the same for all dogs, a one size fits all approach.

Granted, JF has added some quirks of her own, such as you shouldnt leave food filled Kongs for dogs when you go out, as being the 'pack leader', the dog must only access the food after it thinks you have eaten it.

Actually, on that point, have you ever actually stood back and analysed that notion?
You eat a cracker from a bowl of dog food, tell your dog to sit, and give the dog its bowl of food.
So the dog thinks the alpha wolf ate the food first???
So thats the reason it did the sit, to somehow honour the cracker eating alpha wolf???
Really???
Their are so many reasons on so many levels (forget dog, think human even), why that just sounds very, well, barking.
I let you think of those yourself

Anyways, back to the kong.
One of the greatest inventions in doggydom, which has been an invaluable tool for home alone and chew toy training for puppies and adults alike, having prevented a host of separation and destruction problems occuring in the home.

Not to mention that the natural state for dogs isnt to eat from a bowl anyway, so that kind of rules out the cracker exercise as being a communing practice with nature.

I've been checking out your website....i have tendancies toward the buddhist approach to life as well...albeit via the Tibetan bon tradition....and im very much on the path of post operant conditioning and tuning into the natural energy source of the canine.

So i can imagine how an idea like AB, which sells itself as a onenes with the canine, could appeal to someone of that mindset.
But beleive me, as one whom also shares your mindset, AB is not a revolutionary nature based insight tapping into the deeper spiritual energy recesses of the canine spyche.

Its just John Fisher's top dog list from 30 yrs ago.

As a communing meditative chap yourself, i would have to ask why a one size fits all pared down rule set practice would fit with the buddhist way of things?

Re transfom yourself, change your dog, well, that is stating the obvious.
Every trainer would tell you if you dont remain calm cool and collected (this is just the same as JF's keep your heart rate low, which she learnt from Monty Robert's horse whispering, and the same as Cesar Milan's calm assertive energy...good phrase, btw), then you dog aint gonna learn much.
So that isnt an groundbreaking 'AB philosophy' either.

I love your master on the other side of the river line, btw.
I've been reciting that one to anyone i meet for years.
But my version was always 2 blondes either side of a river, one says, how do you get to the other side, the other says, but you are on the other side

heaven forfend!

(although I haven`t seen any Jan Fennels threads lately - have I missed them?)

have fun, Claire

Was it really 30 years ago?!

Time flies.

rune

hello there, i like the blonde joke, maybe I will tweak mine. I realise AB isn't new stuff. i cannot comment on the one size fits all because i don't know enough about it myself. i put into practice the AB method and have got good results. Jaya my dog wasn't a handful before hand but I saw an almost instant respect and calming. BTW, we don't have to eat the cracker from the bowl...I certainly don't!

Maybe we could have a dogsey meditation retreat?? be well and thanks for your responses, Suryacitta

Hello Surya

can you tell me which bits of AB you used, as in what actual training you did to sort out your dog.

what was your dog doing wrong?

JK ideas are flawed on many levels in my view.

Firstly studying any individual group of animals (or humans for that matter) and drawing "blanket - species wide" conclusions from the resulting observations in my view is, compeltly is absurd.

Its like studying a a native tribe from the wilds of Australia and assuming all humans behave in this same way. Families behaviour differs vastly from rich to poor families, rural and city dwelling communities, educated and non educated, young and old parents, and huge numbers of other influences. You will find that canine pack structures are radically different from one another too.

For instance, I routinely mix with 3 large and different groups of dogs. All three behavie very differntly at feeding time! or indeed walking time and during greeting after being seperated. If I had observed only one of them and assume all dog packs behave the same then I would be totally wrong. For example to apply a process (as JF has done) which was based on the "Meaning " of the way they eat for example, would be wrong. As they all eat differently!

THe other and more fundamental concern i have with JF methods is her apparent belief that if there is a clear and defined pack leader then all "problems" and "training requirments" will simply dissolve away.

I have spoken directly with JF more than once and her responses to my questions are always the same, apply AB and everything else will fall into place. Which is nonsense. Total nonsense. If we look at dogs themselves to see if this is true then it is clear that it is not!

Even in groups where pack structure is well defined and a clear overall leader is apparent, the behaviour and training requirments are still present in that and all other dogs.

Being a pack leader as JF thinks we all should be (which In itself I don't have a problem with -though personally I would call it decision maker. not pack leader), does NOT teach a dog to walk to Heel or stop barking, or retrieve a ball, or get off the sofa, or recall away from the rabbit it is chasing, or do pretty much anything else.

No matter what your status with a dog or group of dogs, the training requirements to make the dog a happy sociable, responsive canine companion remain the same.

Hey up, as we say in Yorkshire, I applied all four aspects. I'm not sure how much it would help a severely unbalanced dog, but know that I saw results.

My dog Jaya, wasn't bad. He would run about the house rather madly, jump around at feeding time, and he calmed down very quickly. The basic training i was doing with him became easier too. He seemed more focused and respectful of me. It also cahnged the way he was with my partner but in a less dramatic way...he still pullls her on the lead. She hasn't really taken the AB on, be well, Surya