Very true, & excellent!

im a very instictive trainer but i above all want to be fair to the dog, they after all are the ones that modify their behaviour to fit in with us/ I want dogs to be the very best they can be , & thats not always "perfect"

Thanks Wys. I hope she is happy...judging by the way she is upside down on the sofa I am guessing she is. Consider the strokes given.
It just makes me so sad to see her. She has such a fantastic temperament, she does really want to please and it could have been so very different for her. She does really love other dogs and wants to be with them, but just cannot cope with them running, bless her. She just wants them to stop and it upsets me everytime.
I love the little minx to bits. I'm so glad she is with us now

First of all, I too have felt an 'ecollar' and 'tickle' isn't how I would describe it at all.I think you also need to realise that you are not a dog...it is not on your neck and you knew the shock was coming. You can't say 'it tickled me so it's fine' because you have no idea of the dog's perception of it, given dog's very highly developed senses of smell and hearing, you can't know what else is going on for the dog...it may smell burning, it may even 'hear' the zap. We can't actually know.


You are very welcome to come and meet Tango and see what ecollars do to dogs. I have no doubt if she wore an ecollar again she would be fine offlead for us, but she wouldn't ever be the confident girl I have been trying to nurture for the past 8 months ever again, I would have failed her and totally lost her trust. I would much rather she was onlead and confident in me and trusting me than offlead and waiting for me to 'correct' her. There is more to having a happy dog than offlead exercise.

Poor Tango, so glad she has got a loving home to blossom now.
With Mia I think it was just a fist or a boot - when she did her amazing zooms off into the distance when I finaly caught up with her - although I wasnt angry or anything she cowered into the floor and peed herself, rolled on her back and tried to look as cute as she could
Even now if she hears arguments or anything she jumps all over you all kissy and wiggly trying to get you to stop

I am so sad that people can watch the video, of a supposedly expert trainer, saying how the prong is kind to the dog and the 'pop' on its bum dosent effect her at all when it should be clear to anyone how stressed that poor dog is, then stand up and say they are thinking of E-collars because trainers say it dosent hurt the dog
By the looks of it these types of trainers would only see a dog was in pain if the bone was sticking out - they have no empithy for the poor animal

and to see happy dogs at the end does not mean the dogs were not hurt by the training
teaching an ear pinch or something can get a dog with a vvv fast happy retreve - because the dogs remember the fantastic releif they felt when the bad things were taken away
Its the same when some people say their dogs work for no rewards but are happy
'good boy' means nothing to a dog until you teach it to mean something
For most of our dogs that will mean there is a good chance of a treat or some other rewarding thing so they come to like the word

For someone who teaches with punishment - like a choke chain or e-coller
'good boy' to the dog means you are not going to get zapped - so it makes the dog really happy to hear that

If you want your dog to learn to be happy because he knows he has avoided punishemnt then..............I actually cannot finnish that because it is making me sad

Positive punishemnt negative reward works - look at the dog in the clip
Positive reward, negative punishment works - look at the dog in the clip

Well said, I agree we should understand and accept that dogs are not always "perfect". My own dog isn't, but she's special as she is and she is part of our family for sure

Wys
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Oh bless Mia. That must have been so hard for you to see and even harder for you to think about now. Tickles for her.
The irony of it is, I don't think Tango ever had a hand of foot raised to her...I suspect that her owner actually cared a great deal about her, he was so careful when rehoming her and has checked she is okay. I don't think he will have thought what he was doing was a problem.

I agree with the rest of your post wholeheartedly.

So happy Mia and Tango are in a better place now.
I agree totally with this, with Claire and with Mish.
My dogs are not and will not ever be perfect. I don't want them to be. They have breed traits that make it very difficult for them to be clean or to resist poo of any sort. (Although Tango likes to be clean and dry...probably due to her kennel life).
I did strive for almost perfection with the Guide Dog pups as I knew they were going on to work and to a different trainer, so if I could get them doing well before they left, it would be less stressful for them. It didn't always work that way though! Dogs are dogs at the end of the day! When we got Cosmo we said we were going to stick to the same rules....what a load of old tosh that was. He is on the sofa with his head in my lap every night (or on my son's lap), he sleeps upstairs, he gets 'titbits' and he pees and poos on walks...and sometimes he pulls and sometimes, when in rabbits ville and squirrelsvile, he goes deaf on walks. Love him though...he does what he says on the box and his cup is always full and overflowing. His love of life is contagious and no matter how you feel when you get up in the morning, you can't help but smile at the wagging tail and the oversized teddy he offers you.

Too many people want perfection these days (although I think Cosmo and Tango are perfect for me...) and they want it quickly and with very little work and effort. A lot of people just seem to think their dog will know hwo to behave perfectly without them doing anything. So sad. I know some people actually thought the Guide Dog pups were ready trained at 6 weeks because they were from Guide Dogs ( I am really not joking).


Positive training methods can take a long time before you see the end result...but they produce happy and confident dogs that have total trust in their handlers. They also produce dogs that have a personality. I LOVE that. Tango is now showing more of her personality every day bless her...and Cosmo has personality in abundance. All because of positive training.All because they know they can relax.

At the end of the day if people stil insist on using old style, negative methods there isn't a lot we can do about it, but I do pity them as they will never have the bond that positive trainers do with their dogs.
Sorry...gone on one there...it's the start of Christmas week and I am feeling all emotional!

Totaly agree
People want 'perfect' dogs and expect it quick
and with punishment they get what they think is perfect - in reality it is a dog who has all its natural doggieness supressed - dont bark, jump up, roll in things, pull on lead, eat poo, do crazy zoomies
all of these are dog things, its not fair to punish cos the dog isnt doing anything wrong
Mine are far from perfect but they make me giggle every day, and they are not afraid to experiment to see what happens

An abused child, woman or dog will always try to appease the abuser
This is why beaten children smile so sweetly at the man who hurts them, and the abused wife will deny the abuse, and the cruelly treated dog will fawn on the psycopath who enjoys inflicting pain.
Please don`t be taken in by the weasel words - a `tickle` - a little slap - a good telling off - a firm hand - a sharp lesson.
What these people advocate is bullying a less powerful creature or person into submission by the use of pain - physical and psychological.
These methods will coerce another into doing what you want - although in the case of some posters on here it doesn`t seem to have even done that - but it will destroy the confidence and spirit of the abused, and turn their life into a desperate and anxious ordeal.
Yes a beaten dog wil wag its tail at you. And you can kid yourself it is happy. The dog knows different.

Same here...it's fab huh?!

You may be able to help her get over it by just using simple association - giving her lots of praise, clicking her, extra tasty food she doesn't normally have, etc when dogs are running ... in time that will help

Wys
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