Absolutely. One has to be so careful.
If something did happen, and the trainer was aware that confrontation (talking physical here, or shouting or similar) could cause problems but yet recommended it, and the owner got bitten - not sure how the poor trainer would stand insurance wise. I suspect it would be invalid. Not Good.

Wys
x

Scarter - the confusion was in my head

At first it sounded like you were saying that because of your experience with trainers you have found that positive training does not work for all dogs

Then you said that the positive trainers adapted their methods (still positive) to suit your individual dog, the methods they are now using are working.

I really dont see a problem with that - they even explained why they had chose the inital methods they had used

To me it sounds like v good trainers, sure its not a quick fix but they were adapting their methods to suit the individual dog

You cannot say you are using CM's methods because you dont have him there and you dont know how he would have treated your individual dog (although looking at his shows I havent seen a single episode where he didnt pin a dog that growled to the floor) You are still following methods endorsed by the positive trainers and as you say they are working

So out of interest what would everyone do WITH THEIR OWN PUPPY if it growled at them and was resource guarding at say 8 weeks?

I'm actually interested here as you obviously (will in my humble opinion) can't back down, but then you don't want to make it worse.

My dog is an absolute softy and I have never heard him growl, so I have no idea what I would actually do.

No, you need to make what you have more exciting/appealing than what they have.

It depends on what kind of things they're resource guarding, you can drop treats in the food bowl as they're eating, so that they get to thinking 'hmm good stuff happens when humans go near my bowl I don't need to growl/guard' you can also feed the puppy with the smallest handful of kibble and keep adding to it when it's finished.

That's just two examples but there's a number of different ways to deal with resource guarding without any need for +P.

it is difficult to generalise without knowing the exact situation because you really need to see the reaction of the dog and adjust accordingly. Two of my rescues have had guarding issues when they came to me - one much worse than the other.

But a good example to demonstrate how you have to be flexible is Hoki. She was particularly challenging because she would growl for just about anything she didn't like (us going too near her food, us touching her back end/legs, being asked to move or being told to stop doing something such as counter surfing). My guess is that she had got used to a growl to get her own way, but underlying was the pain/discomfort from her bad legs which she had a geniune concern over. So if I had tried to treat each of her issues in the same way, I think I would've come unstuck.
Briefly food guarding and touching her were done slowly building up her trust and avoiding confrontation altogether. She now has no issues over food (except bones which for the sake of our other dogs we decided just not to give) and will even bring me her kong and drop it in my lap so I can help her get the last bits out. Touching she will still growl ocassional but I can touch her all over, lift up each paw, towel her dry etc. (and she now loves her bum to be rubbed).
Teaching her that she had to do what we asked did involve some confrontation -e.g. use of a house line to make her move if she refused -but no telling off, just insistance in a clear calm voice and plenty of praise and reward whenever she did the right thing. I also had to take into account whether her not wanting to move was to do with her back legs, or just her wanting her own way. Nowadays she will ocassionally ignore our commands (after all she isn't a robot) but she wouldn't dream of growling if we asked her to do something.

My friends dog I was looking after growled when you tried to brush his legs
I slowly clickerd him (he didnt know about clickers till I did this) to get used to the brush going near him then brushing him gently. He was happy within 3 min being brushed - and clicker trained too.

Mia used to food guard from me and worse from Ben. I taught her that when Ben was eating she got good stuff for watching calmly - and now I can scatter treats in the garden and they share - no problems at all
With her when it happend I distracted her with something else then started on a 'give' command. Give is not 100% yet so when she has something at the moment that she values I also chuck treats at her and leave her with the thing she values
I dont confront but at the same time I dont back down

and if it was an 8 week old puppy, great! I know it isnt a long standing behaviour that he has practised for a long time

There's no problem with taking note of what the dog is saying and I'd not tell it off or confront. I'd put into place a good programme to get the dog to associate approaches to/past food as a good thing rather than a bad thing. Jean Donaldson's book Mine! shows how to do this for the pet owner.

Several members of Dogsey did try a confrontational approach and they found it didn't work as the dog got worse ...

Which usually happens, to be honest ..
some people are very lucky and have very easy going dogs who accept being told off, but they are few and far between. There are more problems associated with punishment in this situation; one being that often the teller offer is sometimes the only one the dog listens to, and it may still guard against others. The safer way is to change the dogs emotional reaction, always

Wys
x

One of my fav. videos, Tucker's nail trim - shows what can be done via positive reinforcement and no punishment, but also shows what harm punishment can do, and indeed did do, beforehand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgEwiH8CeUE

Wys
x

I`d walk away. I do walk away - Shamus came to me very scared and growled when people touched him or stood behind him, looked at him directly or made a sudden move. But he learned that growling took away all chance of attention and pleasure so he gradually stopped.
If a tiny puppy growled at me when it was eating I`d hand-feed it. If it growled for another reason you use your brains not your temper. It really isn`t that hard to out-think a dog is it? Do you really need to `teach` a baby creature a fraction of your size that you are stronger and bigger? I`d have thought the dog was already well aware of its vulnerablility and the growling was a sign of apprehension or stress.

When I started teaching my methods were far more confrontational - I would insist on certain behaviours for no other purpose than that they helped me feel in control.
Now I am confident of my own abilities I am far more flexible and can get the class to work with me rather than being demanding. The teaching is better and the kids get more out of it. This might be a learning curve for people with dogs as well - you generally find people who have had dogs for years don`t need to be conciously `assertive` - they understand the dog and work with what is there.

I think that should be in every dog training book - I am going to use it whenever I can