I think it will depend on your definition of hierarchy...

You will see two types of structure in the playground and prison, the structured ranking system that society and laws set down... the teacher /pupil, the headmaster /teacher.

The prison warden /inmate, the head warden /warden!!

These structures (hierarchies) are in all walks of life, its how civilized communities work...

Then there is the hierarchy of the bully and fear based structure.. in both school play ground and prisons, setting the biggest bully at the top of the tree, instilling fear and obedience in all who dare step out of line.

So basically, you wil see both in the playground and prisons, the structure and ethos of the state systems, and the school bullies, who get their by using force and fear to gain their pack leadership!!




I also make my dogs wait before they are fed, they wait at doors/ wait to be released from the car..

I dont see it as me having power over them, nor do they see me as having power over them.

They are taught manners, just like my children were.

I dont want bolshy dogs, that push you out of the way, nor do I want dogs running out of doorways..but it is done for one reason only, theirs and mine safety.

Not because I need to make myself pack leader .

So in a way , we have a hierarchy system going on here..but one that is based on love/leadership and understanding...

i dont look to the wild wolf pack for guidance to understand how my dogs think, they are not wolves, they are domesticated dogs,.. and as such they are treated like dogs.. they live , fit into my home, they also need to fit into society , just like we do, we need rules, structure, and manners...

Simple basic discipline , without having to buy into the belief that if a dog challenges you you need to assert pack leader and think like a wolf!!!!!!!

But studying wolves willd or captive gives us no better insight into dogs behaviour than would studying a remote tribe who had never had contact with the outside world and then translating that to someone in New York

An interesting post. We agree that our own society relies on a hierarchical structure. Weak leadership/dictatorship often end in a struggle for a balance of power this much we can observe in any civil war at any time in history.

By teaching your dog to have manners (for whatever reason you think) is acting like a parent or leader.

So what do you do if a dog challenges you? Raise your voice and assert your authority? Or sit down and reason with it?

If my dog was to challenge me, I would sit down and LOOK for the reason, he did so, then I would either seek advice or look to a solution to solve said problem myself.


This raises the old question of how does a wolf think, which is distinctly different from the rather stilted 'pack rules' that so called dog behaviorists have been teaching.


Why does it raise the question as to how a wolf pack thinks, I am dealing with dogs not wolves!!


It strikes me that if humans were all about love and compassion then we would see no more wars and murders and all the other things that we will agree are bad. Perhaps we are just projecting our own lack of balance on the wolf or perhaps the wolf is similar to us?

Who said we (the human race) are all about compassion

Not sure why you think we are projecting our lack of balance on wolves mind I am running late so, forgive for skimming over your post!!

In this endless debate only one thing seems clear for both sides of the argument; we feel the need to exert our authority over our dogs. Are they our children or our slaves?

It seems that people are either black or white on this issue. No one is denying that there is a strong social structure amongst wolves (are they?) but there does seem to be denial that dogs also have any form of social structure...

Not sure its that simple. The remote tribe will probably have much the same social structure and similar behavior to other humans from other places, though we might blind our selves with our own superiority and not see the evidence. Scientific studies were conducted on many remote tribes in the 19th century on the basis of finding proof that they did not have the same mental capacity as civilized man. These studies failed in their objective.

Indeed there is a strong social structur in wolves but it does not revolve around one inividual! However, as someone who has lived in a multidog household for about 14 years I can truely say that my dogs do not seem to have any structure at all. Just a group of dogs together, sometimes getting on, sometimes not, all will guard the things that THEY place a value on but they are all happy to sit on my lap, no-one complains if it isn't them and no-one will try to 'take over' a spot on my lap or on a bed or chair. I cannot, no matter how hard I try, see any structure at all. They all have their likes and dislikes although I have to say that EVERYONE likes my Terra!



Incorrect, if you watched the Tribe programmes on the box it was clear that each of these tribes had their own social structure depending on their environment. One tribe had such as easy go life that the men of the tribe spent huge amounts of time with their children, something that is denied an awful lot of children in both first and third world countries. That is why we have spread to all parts of this planet beacuse we have the bility to adapt and change out behaviour to better suit the environment we live in.
Becky

Here's a book that uses the dreaded leader and pack words but appears to be about how I see the 'alpha' role. I might have to buy a copy!

Response to Jackbox:

The point is that in the instant, when a dog challenges you you are most likely to make some attempt to control it. You can think about the cause later. Looking for advise or seeking a solution can apply to those that follow the pack rules or those that are opponents.

The only reason for bringing up the way a wolf thinks is because you said: "Simple basic discipline , without having to buy into the belief that if a dog challenges you you need to assert pack leader and think like a wolf!!!!!!!". The outdated theory that is being discussed does not necessarily represent how a wolf really thinks or acts; therefore those that live by the 'Pack leader approach' may not be accurately mimicking the actions of a wolf pack anyway.