Sorry but I agree with Helena. Reading the above quote tells me if the dog doesn't recall he won't get fed that day and so on.
How many days do you leave him not being fed? as sometimes some dogs are not motivated by food and find thier surroundings much more interesting than food however hungry they are.
There are much more humane ways to teach a dog recall and if they really won't recall then I would rather have them on a long line than starve them.

Its not about straving the dog , its about changing the rules in someway/tipping the status quo.

Id fist actually do this on a long line anyway, so he CANT fail & DOES get his tea!to set up the correct new pattern

But thats the problem, Dex (sorry I'm speaking for you here a bit Tabitha so jump in if I'm mistaken) has been on a long line and can barely even get that freedom as he is still so strong etc and the earning food thing was working up until now, tbh it wasnt even me who suggested it but Tabitha had a number of suggestions and decided that she would go with that one based on her dog and it helped.....

so I think consistency is whats needed and if he learns that food is for recall then he should find recall more rewarding etc....

Its easy to say that an owner should keep a 35/45kg dog on a long line.....keep that same young boisterous dog on a longline and it not learn recall at the end of it can also be dangerous, the way they can jerk themselves and their owner and Dex has also proven he can take it right off her and go bounding over....which can render the long line a danger not a help! all just my opinion of course

the long line alongside something where the dog will hopefully not go jerking his neck at the end of it or pull it from the owners hands is a lot safer.


EDIT; sorry but who says feeding a dog from your hand is starving it compared to handing over a full bowl at the end of the night? cos that's pretty much what it comes down to!

I would be quite happy doing this on a long line as you are not setting the dog up to fail, but then I would be offering something like cheese or liver thats worth coming back for. You have to be more interesting and exciting than anything else around.
Until recall is excellent on a long line I would not consider letting the dog off as each time the dog disobeys and doesn't come back it is becoming more and more a learned way of behaving.
If the dog never fails to come when called because of a longline and then gets a very tasty treat when it gets in to you that will become a learned way of behaviour.

That is what I suggested, unfortunately, as on this thread there are some people who consider NOT feeding EXCEPT on recalls as = starving.

Which of course it does not.

There is nothing "inhumane" about feeding a dog ONLY when recall training.

However NOT teaching a reliable recall is inhumane when it results in dead dogs and or dead people (ie when dog bogs off into the road)!

Tabitha, remember, your dog has practised ignoring you for how long?

Say it was for two years, do you think it is reasonable to expect a reliable recall in (how many weeks have you been training?)

I often wonder if those who believe recall training is SO simple for all dogs that they have EVER trained a breed or an individual that is not "handler dependent"?

As Suzanne Clothier aptly puts it:

There are dogs who "carry" their handlers, politely ignoring human failings while carrying out the assigned task with style.

Then there are the "others".

As I said before, this method of training is not unique to me and if it was "INHUMANE" or involved "STARVATION" do you honestly think that members of the APDT (proponent of kind, fair and effective training) would put on courses with those who support this method and indeed have written about it such as John Rogerson?

As a KCAI (Working Trials) and KCAI (Behaviourist) do you think that he actively breaches their Code of Practice?

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/down...nstructors.pdf

Because if you DO I would strongly suggest that you write to both organisations accusing him of "inhumanity" to dogs and get him "removed" from the KCAI scheme and the APDT to ban courses with such a cruel, inhumane personage.

Not sure who all the "proper trainers" were around the time you were training dogs Helena54 as AFAIK JR has been around some time, but perhaps you have trained with instructors who are FAR more skilled, knowledgeable, able and experienced than him?

Obviously the "boloney" that he speaks is just that, that is why he is in demand all over the world including (gasp, horror, shriek) by rescue centres and charities including (more shock horror) The Dogs Trust and the UFAW (Universities Federation for Animal Welfare)!

Better write to them and get JR removed as well?!

So are you seriously suggesting that these organisations which have at their HEART the WELFARE of animals, supports an individual who is "inhumane"?

I would strongly suggest that the only person who is talking the "most utter bolony I think I've ever heard in my entire life" is YOU Helena54!

And I am not sure where you get the FACTS that you quiote from?

Is that years of training dogs of all breeds, temperaments, backgrounds a reliable recall?

What precisely are YOUR skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience in this area?

Do you teach regularly? Do you have pupils who go on to succeed in many disciplines? Do you train Dog Training Instructors? Do you put on seminars all over the world?

Not that I know much about it - I'd guess at none. You're going to be aiming for successful recall mostly no?

Yes but excitable and pushy dogs getting a very tasty reward offered on a full stomach often wont give a toss because they are 1. Full 2. Too excited 3. Fussy about the reward (why go back for liver when there are five dogs when I get liver for one dog sort of thing)

If the food is something that is very rewarding/needed then they are more likely to go for it and hence learn that its a good thing and eventually lead a safer life with more freedom. As I said I didnt initially recommend this method BUT I dont disagree with it either and I see the point in it fully.

But it doesn't seem to be working with the missed breakfast coz Tabitha said this Quote "I let him off the lead and waited until there were some other dogs around and then I immediately recalled Dexter - and he totally ignored me.

He went instead into his 'mock stalking' sequence and did not pay any attention to me at all." Unquote

So to me, even if she starves him for 2 or perish the thought 3 days, then what???!!! Other dogs, distractions etc. are far, far more exciting than any food to Dexter by the sounds of it, so to me, he needs training in another way, even a one to one with a proper trainer should help her out a lot.

When I got Georgie at 5 years old, he had NEVER ever been let off the lead, and I wondered why he never had a recall I never starved him, I never even had treats I just taught him, that coming back to me was the best thing ever, either for the ball or for me jumping around like a loon, making everything so exciting that I was far more exciting to be with than any dog in the park. Admitted I had my other dog too at that time, but he learned within a short time (3 weeks I think, coz he chased after a man barking stopped half way, looked at man, looked back at me and came back to ME!).

I'd be more worried what I was doing to my dog's digestive system with all this witholding food quite honestly, and like I said, I've never heard or read of this anywhere, but then who am I, I'm no geru

When are you putting on YOUR recall seminar madmare?

Cos I think Tabitha (and others) would like to attend this so you can demonstrate all thes other "humane" ways to teach a dog recall, and once again the dog is not being starved.

Perhaps you have published some books, or made some DVDs?

Just because YOU have not read it does not mean it does not exist, it merely demonstrates that you are not widely read, and you are correct you certainly ARE no guru!

How many labradors have you trained for yourself or others?

They are not GSDs!