I can't cover everything in one (previous) post, but yes, I would imagine that some of his results are also referring to management (but not sure, perhaps you should go to one of his seminars and ask him ).
Get it from the horse's mouth, so to speak. I would think he meant that of the cases he resolved, 96 per cent used only more positive methods and 4 per cent used aversion, that would make sense.

There are cases which were not resolved, and he did discuss some of them quite openly, again you'd have to ask him .... one included a dog with severe hip dysplasia. I think it's unfair to even suggest that he is saying he claims 100% success without being certain of your facts, you always seem to write first and ask later....

Re the taste aversion, it's honestly not always that bad. I lost my love of Twixes due to being sick after I'd eaten one. I didn't eat a Twix for 6 years! I wasn't traumatised nor was I particularly concerned, I just avoided Twixes!

So in that case, you could say the taste aversion worked like a charm without any harm

When we got home from the seminar, I actually did the taste aversion as suggested on my other half and he was fine with it, it would of course be a little different with dogs as they don't normally eat lemons...

Re the rest of your post, the method takes into account handler/environment association, unlike shock collar methods...

Tass, your comments are fair but rather than criticise, why not go to one of his seminars and ask him all these questions yourself? Much better than asking others who have been but may not have all the answers to everything.


Wys
x

But what if shock collars are banned in the whole of the UK, which I anticipate they will be - what will you do then?

Mmmm?

I'd start learning different methods Adam, to be ready when the ban occurs

Wys

I hope he is suitably appreciative of your marketing of his seminars for him.

Alternatively you might like to invite him to post on Dogsey .

I write on the basis of information received, from a variety of sources. The time before when you objected to my information being inaccurate, on this same subject, it then transpired that it was not.

In fact I queried as I posted, when I said maybe the figures stated (by you) inclined those that continued to rely on management rather than being resolved by training and by saying that reduction rather than total resolution of the problem may be what was being classified as a success.

As for quoting a 100% success rate I thought I was quoting your post ? :
In which you may note you didn't mention any suggestion of the less successful cases you are now referring to (nor did you when you previously quoted those figures on his behalf). Or are you saying that he was successful with that particularly difficult husky but not others in that 4%?

Sorry, I appear to have been finding it difficult to understand exactly what you are saying in terms of these figures, but you now appear to have clarified than point with these qualifying comments to your previous post, although I would still be interested to know the results of the 4%, if you are aware of it?

In my experience lemon is not an emetic to dogs,or does it cause illness, it is not even a strong aversive to many.

The spray collars recognised this by having a mustard scent option for those dogs who do not mind lemon.

Several of my dogs have happily eaten lemons from choice, so lemon would not be a major aversive by itself to them and for those that it is, there is then the consideration of an accidental behavioural side effect of an inappropriately conditioned aversion to anything lemon scented:Furniture polish, cleaners, disinfectants, scented candles, cooking ingredients, etc.

The owner could maybe avoid these themselves but they may find it harder to avoid them anywhere they may go in the environment as many humans like and use the scent in a wide variety of everyday applications. This could have unintentional behavioural fall out

Could you please explain how this is controlled for in this method, and comparatively how it is not controlled for with shock collar methods?

And again with the marketing, I hope he is paying you commission

You specifically mentioned DR and post links to his articles in this and other posts with regard to recall/anti chase methods. My interest is in discussing various methods, , which involving acquiring, cross referencing and evaluating information from various sources.

As I have posted before, others also use this method so my comments and my interest in all the pros and cons of various methods, including this one, not individuals.

Debate with people of various views and experiences can often throw up ideas from a new perspective that may have escaped someone habituated to using a technique.

I think most people on here hope to share and learn and not everyone is able to attend numerous seminars on all the different approaches, disciplines and methods, for a wide range of reasons.

However persistently they are promoted

[name removed]Name removed - post proof when posting such claims. stuff is just toy drive training with a spray collar and emit added for hard cases.

Nothing wrong with that and it will give reasonable results.

I have to say nothing he writes gives me the impression he deals with hardcore killers, certainly one husky who killed one sheep is nothing to some of my clients dogs!

I think his toy drive methods are good but impractical, many dogs will hook onto a toy within a few days in the home but ignore it when outside, with these guys it may be possible to hook them onto a toy by restricting access to the outside for a long term and only building it up gradually and using the toy (e;g desensitise them to the outside) but will take a while and is very restrictive in the meantime.

I would much sooner give the dog a quality of life and some freedom and get on with it tbh.

Imo some dogs that won't fixate ona toy prior to livestock training will afterwards, I think its simply because you have removed one type of prey so they look for a substitute. However if they still have the real prey option avilable they have no motivation to change.

A dog like Rupert doesn't sound bad at all tbh. Remove the prey option via training and you might find a toy focused dog that has tonnes of work drive, or not!
But you will still be able to get him to recall and work with you ect when you need it.

Btw even with his history I'd reckon on two weeks as a recall from prey period.

Adam

Which of your remarks apply to my last question?

SB you do this all the time, whenever questions are asked or someone dosn't agree with you, you start going on about how little they know and become defensive (and come accross very 'I'm a little know it all') but I don't see anything in your post that would change my mind or has enlightened me at all. If someone is wrong about something then why dont you post the facts, instead of that attitude? This is why people start to think your reading out a text book... So what is the point you are trying to make here? That you cant post on a dogsey thread if your dog isnt a search and rescue, a PP or WTC?

Actually Tass, you were quite wrong when you referred to his methods previously, perhaps you don't remember... IIRC I believe you posted inferring he only used a method intended to make a dog sick! This was wrong and unfair to the the method.

As for promoting this method, yes I do promote it in the sense that I believe it's a very useful alternative to the shock collar. I can call my Belgian off running deer and other animals using a method which is very similar to this, therefore I know it can work very well indeed.

Therefore I refer to it if I choose to post on a chasing thread, and hope it can help others. Even the link to his article can help owners understand a bit more about what predatory chasing actually is, there is very little around about this subject. If it helps anyone, that's good.

I don't actually know of any other methods except getting a dog hooked on a ball, but it's not exactly the same as this method.

I'm here to chat and maybe help dogs and owners, not debate with people who are just after an argument, which you appear to be. You are a relatively new member who seems to prefer to complain rather than be constructive. IF you debated in a different manner, then that would be different.

Do you yourself have any good methods on preventing dogs chasing? I don't appear to have read anything helpful from you about this subject, unless I've missed it.

To be honest, if you are helping dogs and owners with this problem or any other, you do need to do CPD and that does mean attending workshops, seminars or whatever, they are not all expensive (although they do seem to be getting more and more expensive no matter who is doing them). You can't learn too much just from forums.

If you're not helping owners then I guess it's not so important and forums might do if it's just for personal interest and nothing more.

By the way, the source you used for reference re. taste aversion, you forgot to mention that the author, who I know well actually really likes the method in spite of what you quoted, which sounded negative. In fact, she hosted the seminar.

Not everyone will agree with or like this method and that's up to them, but what I do object to is someone dissing a method and an individual, and not even getting their facts right (which you've done twice now).

Wys

But no Adam, this is not what it is, he tackles everything from the bottom up emotinal homeostasis upwards ... if this is not tackled, then the other bits related to the actual predatory chasing will not work. Also the toy is chosen very carefully for the dog - it must be a bit like the target, but not too much. It's not a matter of just tossing tennis ball around...




He has dealt with quite a few dogs who have been trained with shock collars but who still chased sheep ...

I guess we could argue this until the cows come home though, we would not agree

Wys
x

I`ve always taught recall with the aid of high value food treats and patience.
It`s not failed yet.

and that`s with all sorts of dogs, all ages, many breeds.

Maybe if you can`t train recall with patience and food treats you`re not a very good trainer?
I can`t help feeling that people who can`t train a simple basic recall need to look for the problem at the upper end of the lead.
Or as my techie son puts it...
The problem is between the keyboard and the chair.

I have a high-prey drive dog and have recall trained him with food motivations. We were walking on the field round the corner from where we live last week and there are flats adjoining the field and a cat was sitting in a window and Parker was on his hind legs nose pressed against the glass practically touching the cats nose! I called him and he came but then I got it wrong and released him rather than putting him on a leash and moving away and of course he went straight back!! Whoops!

so it works! Well done. Work in progress for mum then.