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Location: Surrey, UK
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,814
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31-08-2006, 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by Clob
Jennymy thoughts firstly was that a qualified and experienced behaviourist will be able to help you solve your dogs aggression problems.
Denis (Clob)
There is no such qualification, unless you like to name it so it can be examined. The way you write I get the impression that you are a pet dog owner who has been told there is some kind of qualification, there is not. I was the trainer and in the case of the home situation you might call me a behaviourist, I could call myself a behaviourist but I would not have my name involved with that that label.
Jenny
It sounds to me like the person who helped you was under qualified.
Denis (Clob)
That is probably because you think there is such a thing, there is not, however, what about a KC accreditation? Do you consider that a ‘qualification’?
Jenny
I am beginning to doubt that the trainer was not a member of the apdt as they require all of their qualified trainers to use positive methods of training, this does not sound to be the case.
Denis (Clob)
Every time anyone is asked what they mean by ‘positive methods’ no one replies, so, if you go back to the OP post you will see what the owners were told for the £100 and it is standard treats and stuff first.
APDT is just one of dozens of organisations which call themselves ‘positive training or trainers’ the fact is they use a punishment based method, the term ‘positive’ and ‘reward’ are commercial terms, they ‘appeal/attract’ the dog owners.
It was me who first asked the owner if the trainer/s belonged to any organisation, all the owners knew was that the main trainer/behaviourist said she belonged to some organisation but they neither knew or cared what it was so I told them it was almost certainly APDT as they are the biggest.
As it turned out when she checked it was not APDT and apologised here. That makes no difference people calling themselves positive trainers are telling pet owners they use ‘positive methods’ one organisation cannot suddenly slag off another organisations members because their ‘positive training is ‘more’ positive than another organisations ‘positive methods' when in fact 'positive methods' is no more than a commercial term.
However, your post sounds more thought out than most on here (which is why I replied to yours), so, if you read it again you see that if that dog had gone to quite a number of people here that dog would be dead by now. It would ONLY have gone back to any rescue if the rescue guaranteed the owners it had a placement on a farm to go to and they would almost certainly have checked it out for themselves.
I don’t know how many people on here would have been the death of this dog but I can name some of them – Wiziwig, known APDT member, Christine Brierley, known APDT member…there’s quite a few more, so if killing a perfectly healthy dog for displaying perfectly normal behaviour, for that dog, is what you call positive (as they do by clear implication) then that is your preference, as it is theirs, it was not the owners preference, the dog had no say either way.
Quite frankley if those people who's hand would have killed this dog are claiming some kind of credibilty then I for one do not see it.
Finding these people may be difficult, but they are around and i have met some extremely knowedgable people in the field of animal behaviour.
There are many books on the market today that explain the ins and outs on canine neuropsychology, learning theory etc. If you have read any of these books you would know that e-collars do not need to be used when treating behaviour problems. And no i am not saying that all u need to do is read a book and hey presto your a behaviourist.
I cannot see why any behaviour problem would need to be cured through the use of e-collars when there are methods that work otherwise. This does not always mean lure and reward methods.
Quite often more commitment is needed from the owner than they are willing or have the time to offer. That does not mean that an e-collar should be used.
And as i stated above, if someone is a member of the apdt, that does not mean they are a behaviourist. That is a very big difference in my mind. Some of them are, and to me that means they are very knowedgable on the inner workings of the canine mind and behaviour and have studied this for many years.
A dog trainer is a different kettle of fish and if they are only clued up on how to run puppy classes and the basics of canine learning theory, then they should not be taking on aggression cases.
A good behaviourist will work closely with vets and be referred by them also. Quite clearly whoever took on this particular case did not have the correct knowledge to solve it
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Location: Lincolnshire
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 8,958
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31-08-2006, 09:18 PM
Do what you usually tell everyone else to do Denis, look back through the posts instead of flitting from internet cafe to the next internet cafe so that you can join multitudes of forums from which you are banned under different names
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Location: London
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 224
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31-08-2006, 09:39 PM
it doesn't matter what we think to the e collar.
Clob (Denis)
What does matter is that those such as you can and do mislead other people, the most you can factually say is “I know nothing about them” if I am wrong then please detail some facts.
The reason people like me come here is not to defend e-collars, there is nothing to defend, I am here to give accuracy against others fantasy.
Leo
the question is have you ever trained a dog without needing some form of aid or tool.
Clob (Denis)
No one has ever done that with anything other than quiet dogs, what do you think clickers and halties are, leads, balls treats, toys, I use them all.
Leo
or do you just try any thing on the market before you use the old ways of training a dog?
Clob (Denis)
Sounds to me like someone has indoctrinated you, the methods used and training aids, in what you are told is ‘positive training’ are not knew at all, your just sold that idea, the methods you use ARE “The Old Ways”, except you are a source of income so commercial trainers sell you that nonsense, the gullible bite, others walk away after a few weeks or a couple of months.
Clickers were around long before my time, they were used in circuses when they had performing animals, we called them crickets then and they were made of tin, we used them as gimmicks copied from what we saw at the circus, treats have always been around and always will be, toys, especially balls go back probably at least to the Victorian period and again the circus dogs, I use them all, so did Hitler, there is stacks of archive footage of him using a ball to get his GSD over 2 metre jumps.
The modern way is the development of the modern e-collar, the people who bamboozled you with ‘old methods’ have no knowledge of any kind of them or their use, they fail to give an explanation as to why they refused to learn anything about them, they fail as trainers because they cannot make any accurate comment on them and do not know how to use them to the advantage of dogs and their owners, that is not professional and they have failed to justify it.
Maybe now I have given a few answers I think it is fair you answer mine, what experience do have of any e-collar?
Treats for tricks app 1957.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...ainingChum.jpg
Jumps, taught for ball rewards app 1985
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l1...hmentbench.jpg
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Location: Usually in a muddy field somewhere
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 20,145
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31-08-2006, 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by Clob
Lucky StarThese deveices are barbaric and should be consigned to history.
Mind you, I echo the sentiment ...AZZ - this is degenerating ...!
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Location: London
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 224
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31-08-2006, 09:48 PM
Oh Denis, why am I not surprised you didn't see my post asking for you to show everyone exactly where on the APDT website it says that their trainers have to use purely positive methods????
Denis
I never mentioned the APDT site, if I am wrong point me to where I mentioned it, apart from that the APDT web site is only one of millions of commercial web sites, everything written on there is only designed to to sell their services, its just a commercial advertising site.
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Location: Long Eaton
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 12,868
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31-08-2006, 09:53 PM
What does matter is that those such as you can and do mislead other people, the most you can factually say is “I know nothing about them” if I am wrong then please detail some facts.
i'm not misleading anyone i am just putting my point of view on e collars into this debate.
i don't want to know anything about them, i have no desire to use this type of collar on my dogs!
Clob (Denis)
No one has ever done that with anything other than quiet dogs, what do you think clickers and halties are, leads, balls treats, toys, I use them all.
yes i have used some but never had the need to give my dogs a shock to teach them between good or bad behaviour.
Clob (Denis)
Sounds to me like someone has indoctrinated you, the methods used and training aids, in what you are told is ‘positive training’ are not knew at all, your just sold that idea, the methods you use ARE “The Old Ways”, except you are a source of income so commercial trainers sell you that nonsense, the gullible bite, others walk away after a few weeks or a couple of months.
no one has done anything of the sort i have my own view on methods of dog training and the methods i choose to use on my dogs.
so now i'm gullible because i don't agree with you!
The modern way is the development of the modern e-collar, the people who bamboozled you with ‘old methods’ have no knowledge of any kind of them or their use, they fail to give an explanation as to why they refused to learn anything about them, they fail as trainers because they cannot make any accurate comment on them and do not know how to use them to the advantage of dogs and their owners, that is not professional and they have failed to justify it.
sorry but if the e collar is a modern method you can keep it!
the explaination has been given by more than 1 of us on this thread.
so because we don't use your collars none of us have trained dogs?
i never said i was a dog trainer my dogs are pets they do as i ask to please!
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Location: Sheffield, UK
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,965
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31-08-2006, 09:57 PM
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/pr...ard-060223.pdf
It says enough don't you think.
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Location: Usually in a muddy field somewhere
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