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Location: Scotland
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12-05-2009, 04:39 PM
Pidge - I am not going to try and offer any advice, as you have already had more than enough and your head must be bursting.
What I would say is that Moss (my working bred collie) was like Woody without the aggression and was a complete nightmare as a pup/teenager. Work sorted him out. I wonder if Woody would show such problem behaviour and traits if he were to work. I understand you want to keep him and try and sort through his issues to the best of your ability, but please don't consider having him pts before you offer him to the police or as a working gundog for a gamekeeper or the like.
No-one could work harder than you have and are doing with Woody, but unfortunately sometimes hard work and love are just not enough I hate to sound so negative, and I TRULY do hope you manage to keep Woody and resolve his issues, so he becomes a happy and well-adjusted adult.
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Location: Fife Scotland
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12-05-2009, 04:40 PM
He didn't just chew he ate things, for example a hole 3 inches in diameter out of the back of a nightie while I was mking the bed. He wan't housetrained, he rarely settled and I was in tears many a time.
I had never needed a houseline with any of the other dogs with him it saved my sanity even if he did chew through several
At least I could move him without getting into a confrontation and he couldn't wander away to pee or chew. When I couldn't have him attatched he was in his cage ok not ideal but it took a lot of stress away from me and thus him.Oh and he came to me because he had nipped a child in his first home
I still count teaching him to go and settle down as my biggest achievement
He rarely destroys things now bar tissues but I can live with that. He did housetrain in the end and he's a sweet boy with visitors and when out. At this time you will be feeling very lost alone and mixed up but you can get through it
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Location: Wiltshire, UK
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12-05-2009, 06:45 PM
First of all THANK YOU!! I really, really appreciate all the support and advice that EVERYONE has offered, especially all my PMs which I promise to get round to responding to. I cannot tell you how much it means to me to hear all of your support, similar stories and encouragement. It's really helped to lift my spirits.
I've picked out some replies that I think need responding to but firstly I just want to set a few records clear.
1. Woody is 8 and a half months old now.
2. I have changed my working hours to Mon-Thur, 9am-2pm.
3. When we are out of the house we no longer put him in the crate.
4. The only time he uses the crate now is to sleep in it over night, in the hallway, near our bedroom.
5. We only took him to 3 gun dog training sessions and have now stopped as we could see it was not enjoyable for him.
6. We now take him to Tony Orchards in Oxfordshire, once a week where we are hoping to get him ready for agility when he's old enough (about 14 months plus).
7. Diet - he is currently on Hills Nature's Best Medium Puppy food. He does about 3 or 4 loose poos on each walk (so 2/3 times a day) and eats EVERYTHING he sees; sticks, greenery, stones etc.
8. I have him booked in with the vet tomorrow morning to do tests on possible causes of behaviour; diet, blockages, nuero etc so we can at least rule all of that out.
9. I am not EVER EVER going to have him pts. There is a solution to all of this and I AM going to find it.
The trouble I am having now is that despite my determination to fix this I am starting to feel a lack in confidence in myself and am becoming abit withdrawn (i.e. don't want to talk about it, be near him etc). However, I always feel the first thing to cure a problem is to recognise that so am going to have a Chinese take away for dinner, a bottle of wine, a warm bath and early night and start tomorrow afresh!!
Another major issue I am having is obviously trying to make sure I not only listen to just one person but that I agree with that advice. There are so many things we need to do that I don't want to but everyone is telling me I have to (such as the house line). I just want to try everything until something works, but here in lies the problem!
I also need to stop living in the past and trying to work out what caused this. Dogs live in the hear and now so so should I.
Originally Posted by Borderdawn 
Dont forget the "experts" told you to do it, they will defend it to the hilt.
Most aggression and nervous aggression issues are made worse by castration. Reducing and subsequently removing testosterone will make a dog more edgy and reactive in circumstances they feel vulnerable in, such as some of the situations you describe, particularly those that are getting worse for no apparent reason.
I know it feels like I am saying "I told you so" and I DONT mean it to come across that way because it isnt how I feel but it is something we have seen many times with life in boarding kennels. Dogs displaying "normal" behaviour, sometimes is seen as inappropriate by inexperienced owners and a Vets cure all is castration! If the dog runs off castrate it, if the dog guards food, castrate it, if the dog barks, castrate it, if it jumps up, castrate it!! Bottom line is they are NOT behaviour experts and they dont live with these dogs, ultimately problems like Woody's are made much worse due to the dogs natural hormones for reassurance and confidence being taken from him, resulting in his reactions and his behaviour being exhibited in a much more pronounced way.
I think the advice offered by others more "into" behaviour is excellent and I think Woody is very lucky to have such a dedicated owner.
I know what you are saying. My instincts are telling me that because his ''feel good juice'' has gone he's more vulnerable, therefore defensive but no matter what I do believe that most of these issues were under lying and on their way out anyway.
Originally Posted by Minihaha
I hesitate to say anything in case it is seen as criticisms but Pidge
try to stand back and look at the bigger picture.A lot of Woody's behaviour sounds like typical working springer behaviour to me and is very similar to Zak's, but he hasn't had aggression issues ( I think he would have had under certain circumstances ).
Woody is only a puppy still and has seen many sudden changes in his routine and lifestyle. He had your undivided attention all day every day and went from this situation to spending long periods of time during the day some days in a crate, then in a travel crate at night and on a house line in the evening. Some puppies may cope with this kind of restriction , others won't (particularly those with strong working instincts), they can become destructive and frustrated and frustration can find other oulets in things like aggression.
Woody sounds a confused puppy
. Pidge , I know you have done your best, some puppies are very hard work. I am only saying this to give you some idea as to what the cause of the problem may be . I won't offer any advice, your head must be spinning with it....xx
Originally Posted by Luke
And here is my que
He sounds very similar to Ralph at that age. Ralph was totally out of control, some think this is an exadgeration but trust me..the house was destroyed, the garden no more, my cats never appeared, we never got visitors, he escaped, he urinated everywhere, he'd bite and growl whenever challenged to do something, he'd bark in a tantrum to the point we nearly got evicted and no longer speak to our neighbours, he nipped me numerous times, he nearly got us both killed when on a winter walk he bombed into a very high and strong flowing river and got out of his depths..i had to dive in to save him and snagged myself on a tree, luckily someone was walking past and could hear my shouts. He put me in hospital with a fracture to my wrist from pulling so much, gave my friend concussion from repeatedly jumping all over them..they put their head down and he did damage, erm..the list is endless. He nailed a neighbours cat to the point it was pts, and i really had enough..thought I couldn't handle him anymore. Really felt this was it.
The key is NO FEAR. And to not worry about breaking the rules as it were. You HAVE to be on top, constantly. It's not easy but if he's this way inclined you simply can't leave him to have a minute of..unstructured life. Every second of life has to be structured and organised, even play. There must be a clear outline for eating, sleeping, playing, training, discipline, love etc, Woody must be aware of this routine and how it lies..and most importantly, he must be made aware of HOW and WHEN to switch off.
His aggression does have, and I will not be subtle, stand a chance of spiralling. An ESS with a bad temper is a nightmare, they are a strong dog, with a high drive, and a lot of ability to jump ver high and have a lot of speed-that mixed with anger is a recipe for a serious amount of damage in a minimal amount of time. There must be a "mutual respect", not a you dominating him thing but he must learn it's simply not acceptable to act in such a way. The NILF way worked with Ralph, it was hard hard hard work but he's come..fairly well now.
ESS are difficult, Ralph was my first..and truly it's difficult to find this balance when their pups of what's acceptable to let them get away with, they may look soppy but they are INCREDIBLY calculated and given an inch will take a mile!
Originally Posted by Lizzy23
Have to agree with both Luke and phill, i always remeber what one of my first dog trainers said to me
"springers are like collies with brains (please don't take offence collie peeps none intended) a well trained collie will do what you tell it because you tell it , a springer you can tell to do something, it will think about it and if it can see a point in it, then it will do it"
I agree with some of the others Woody is just being a normal springer pup, pushing you to your limits because he can, and the more frustrated you get the more he does it to wind you up.
To be fair most of mine will warn me off if i try to take a bone of them, but they won't bite,, i just leave em alone when they have bones after all i'd cryy off if someone tried to take a cream doughnut of me.
I just have a couple of questions before i go.
1.You mentioned diet what is he fed on?? springers don't do well on anything that has any colours or additives in and from what you describe he seems to display some of the characteristics of some of the rescues that come in on dodgy food, the not settling and the panting, does he drink a lot as well??
2. If the food is a decent one whats the protein level?? a friend of mine feeds Dr johns Silver, one particular time she couldn't get it and fed gold and it sent her springer of the scale in terms of hyperness, she quickly found some silver and all returned to normal.
Originally Posted by MissE
*Hugs* Pidge - because I think you need them.
The problems you listed with Woody, we actually had too when we adopted Missy. Yes, little seal faced happy Missy
We had the behaviour advice from Battersea and from the behaviourist who ran our dog training classes. I've been bitten whilst we were enforcing the training but I shrug that off. Now she knows the rules, Missy wouldn't bite again. I second what Luke say in that you must show no fear.
I'll add one piece of advice, but not to do with training. All the time we were retraining Missy to what we wanted, we had a couple of DAP diffusers running in the house to help calm her down. ( a couple because it needed two to cover the sq footage)
If you're not trying those, they might be worth a shot.
And FWIW Missy adores children
Good luck hon, persevere, be consistent and I am sure it'll get better xx
Originally Posted by Benzmum
Sending you huge hugs Pidge - you must be out of your mind.
I know you are trying your very hardest for woody and hopefully the posts here will help you a bit, especially Luke and Phils.
I have no advice to give at all and I am siure at this point your head is spinning from it, but if you exhaust all the advice your behaviourist can offer there are plenty of really experienced folk here who I am sure would help you. I know you are doing everything you poissibly can for Woody.
Can I make an observation , it is not in any way a criticism and it'll prob come across as unhelpful because I don't have an answer BUT maybe someone else can help you with the answer.
Woody sounds like at least 50% of the time he is aa nightmare to live with just now, your little angel who loved cuddles etc now demands things, becomes destructive because he is hyper, has no off switch so like an over tired child becomes petulant, has started to challenge by showing aggression - you must be at your wits end and on edge pretty much all the time which is understandable (especially because someone mentioned pts to you, I know how I felt when that was mentioned to me in different circumstances, it consumed every thought I had) So, what Ian trying to say is no matter how hard you try to do calm you will be giving off mega stressed vibes which woody can pick up. So that will be making Woody worse.
Sorry I don't know whatto do to get round that, I had a similar situation where my behaviour (despite the fact I didn't think I had a "behaviour" was adversley effecting Ben, don't get me wrong Ben had a problem which was there, but my behaviour was sensed by him and he acted accordingly. Now I know Woodys probs are driving you to despair so your actions are bound to be influenced by him.
Huge hugs to you x
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
Pidge, I think this is a good idea. One of the things that actually really upset me today upon reading this thread was the sheer amount of advice, much of it very different - it's impossible to be consistent with so advice on almost every post. My own head was spinning so goodness knows how yours must be. Some of it may be useful to you but much of it will be experiences others have had which may not be at all applicable to your situation with Woody, as you are both unique.
Training and behaviour work is not prescriptive unfortunately, for that very reason.
If things go wrong again or do not improve, I'd suggest contacting Gwen Bailey. She is in Oxfordshire and of course is not only a behaviourist but does specialise in puppies. As you may know, she used to be the behaviourist for the Blue Cross at one stage and I believe she also does working trials training (but for fun, not to compete).
Wys
x
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
Time outs are OK and can be really good if certain rules about how they are done are followed. There is a knack to using them successfully.
I'd recommend not scooping him up physically, I'd totally avoid that. I'd use the house line for that.
Reason being that he may start to associate handling in that context or others as confrontational due to previous punishment/experience and it may make him aggressive there. Anything like that - collar grabbing etc in similar situations - can escalate this. There are ways around this but dont want to be too confusing ...
Re timeouts
The dog must understand why he's got one. This is imperative. So, a marker word should be said calmly - use a particular word such as "wrong" said very calmly.
Then straight away with no eye contact, remove the dog using a houseline. Be calm all the time.
The time out must not be for more than a few minutes, ideally about 2-3 to start with. Then dog should be let back in again very calmly and with no excitement.
Undoubtedly, may need to repeat but after a few reps the dog usually gets the message for that particular behaviour. If they don't everything needs to be looked at a lot more closely.
However, what you and hubby must not do, now, is to ever allow him to just chew the coffee table in your presence, even the tiniest bit, as if you do he will get confusing messages. He may then show aggression when told off for it (just using this as an example of how aggression can start) as he will be confused with the mixed messages. Consistency is the key always
If the owner cannot be consistent then they should either not do the time outs and just use distracting, management etc or else literally not bother about it, but decisions need to be made as to what is acceptable and what is not, and consistency always - but you realise this anyway
Give reward and attention for dog choosing to do the right thing, calmly if you can - but if the dog gets a bit excited it doesn't matter as there must be a difference between doing something "wrong" and the correct behaviour. Using praise and "punishment" ie time out will do this.
(If there is a lot of exasperation you can do "3 and you're out" which is where on the 3rd timeout the dog can be left out for longer, say half an hour. But this is more to avoid frustration on the owner's part and is more for say, strongly mouthing dogs than what Woody does).
It is a very trying time but don't lose heart.
Wys
x
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
Yes this is correct, but context is important too. A friend who has rehabbed a lovely gsd found that castration helped a lot in that particular situation although she'd not normally have even considered it
Totally agree with you there Borderdawn
Good behaviourists are aware of what neutering might do, but bad ones may not be. However there is so much to be taken into account with each case. I have my own views on what has happened with Woody and for me personally it's not so much related to castration but more what has happened with the learning experience
Wys
x
Originally Posted by Jackbox
I have to agree with Minni here in much of what she says.
Pigde... almost ALL Woody's behaviour is normal puppy behaviour, apart from the food aggression..BUT even there it can be worked on.
In the nicest possible way you're wrong. It's very hard to convey online but I'm confident it's not just puppy stuff
I know you have a behaviourist working with you..but to be honest Pigde..if he/she is advising having Woody PTS.. for the behavioural traits he is showing...I would be looking else where.
She's not advising that. Sorry I thought I made that clear earlier. She has said that this is what will happen if we don't get to the bottom of all of this now. It's worse case scenario and I guess was said to motivate me but unfortunately all it did was send my into a blind panic and become frightened. Now I'm OK, but that was my first reaction. FWIW she works with me and is well respected so I do fully trust her advice and opinion. I think it's very important to in situations like this.
I would expect any professional to first... advise me to seek veterinary investigation, to see if any health problems are causing any of his behaviour.......have you been down that route.
Yep, see above.
I would also take up Shona offer , before you go down the road of even thinking of having him euthanized, as he is far from that stage, and I dont believe he is un-re homeable... I wonder who told you that
I was advised that if his biting aggression becomes any worse he will not be re-homeable. I am NOT having him pts or even considering it at this stage, you must undertstand that.
I would take him to Shona but we couldn't be further away from each other.
Sorry Pidge, with respect, and correct me if I am wrong,, you are both first time dog owners, along with having no children, and comparing him to a disabled child is offensive...and maybe shows a little naivety on your part in what is involved in owing and bringing up young pups.
I'm afraid I disagree. Yes we are first time owners and childless but I still know what it takes to look after not just a disabled child but a child with mental difficulties. I spent some time volunteering with disabled children in Vietnam and looked after them in the home and in the class room. It's full on, exhausting and emotionally draining because you love them and sometimes feel helpless. This is what I was referring to.
Having a puppy any puppy is a full time job, that needs 24/7 attention... and you can compare it to bringing up children ALL children... as those who have them will tell you it is also a full time job, where you need to have eyes in your backside and never close them!!
I understand the biting is getting you down, and from what you are saying, I get the feeling you are becoming a little frightened of him... and he will be able to pick up on this... he will be reading your vibes and he knows he has one up on you.
Number 1 ... did you read the article I posted on rescue spaniels..Woody is beginning to show some classic signs of frustration, shown by working dogs who are not in the job they are bred for.
Some dogs have more working instinct than others,and Woody many be one of them, and I think you really need to ask yourself, can you provide that job for him.
The other points are all classic bolshy pup syndrome... all can be fixed, the food aggression needs a little more work, but I thought you where making progress.
We have progressed on the food aggression. We have also covered the ''should he be in a working home''. The feeling is quite strongly no, it's not that, he just is very strong willed, pushing the boundaries and has not had enough consistency. There also may be a medical thing which we'll soon know. It's a long way off before we start thinking about re-homing him in a working environment.
I think some of Woody's problems are breed related.. but some are also typically puppy related..
The barking for attention, trying his luck with you , all can be worked on... but his working instinct may need a little more thinking about... and you need to be honest with yourselves as to whether you can provide it.
On the plus note, if you can get past the puppy stage , and get all your problems sorted , you will reap the benefits later on.
Believe me, Having Boxer puppies , what you described with Woody.. you can tenfold that... and they NEVER grow up
But please dont consider Euthanasia... he is a long way from that.. it might be you have to re home him to a working home...
But see your vet, have bloods done see if any medical problems are causing any of his behaviour.. and to be honest, if your behaviourist, has not suggested that... find another..
Because, if your behaviourist is giving up on him now, I would be asking how good he is.
And again...take up on Shona`s offer!!!!
Originally Posted by Shona
I really felt for you when you were having your moments with your ESS, much of what pidge is going through is so similar to the things you delt with,
its nice for owners of the same breed who have had similar problems to help.
I think I have missed a lot of whats been going on with woody, due to things going on here and not being on line as much,
but it does sound like your doing a lot with him, eg gundog training, obed, behaviourist,
you may find you will get very conflicting advice from three very diff trainers,
if I were you,
I would write down a list of the problems he has had,
then add to that list, which trainer helped, which made no real diff, or if they made things worse,
if there is a clear trainer out in front, who seems to make more headway with woody, who you like and trust you could only use the advice that trainer gave you, but still continue to do other things with him.
sometimes you can over stimulate a young pup, wys would be better to talk to about that sort of thing,
hang in there, try not to get wound up, x
Originally Posted by Moobli
Forgot to say that I would also be taking up Shona's very kind offer. Maybe some time away would do you both some good?
Originally Posted by Lottie
Oh Pidge... 7 months is so young - really.
I was shocked by Takara's relentless energy and even dalmatian breeders, showers and rescuers thought she was mental!
I am constantly amazed by puppies who come to my training classes and just lay down by their owners and think 'why wasn't she like that?' (actually, she's still not like that in class!)
But she's now 4, comes to the shop with me all day every day and lays under the counter has two walks a day either side and then lays down at home (unless she's in the lounge and then she just pesters the hamsters).
I was convinced she had ADHD and her nickname of Psychobitch has stuck
To be honest - we've had a few problems of late and we're going right back to square one with her. I relaxed on her when lots of people told me I was too strict but it's no good - she needs me to be so we've gone back to that.
Besides which - they go through a funny phase at that age when they stop being little pain in the bum puppies and become total rat bag teenagers! You'll get there
I was thinking 'I can't work her out, how am I going to spend another 10 years with her how she is?' only yesterday but it gave me a boot up the bum to go and work with her again and do you know what? it worked - she was fab!
I must admit I find that serene-um really helps with Takara's training and her reactivity towards other dogs. Have you tried anything like that?
Also if there is anything really really wrong - a vet should be able to pick up on anything neurological.
You'll have good times and bad times - you'll have set backs and leaps forward, you'll laugh and you'll cry but it'll all be worth it eventually
Keep your chin up and feel free to pm me if you need to x
Originally Posted by Sarah27
I was wondering about this too Losos. It sounds as if things with Woody are really wearing you down at the moment Pidge and I guess all the different trainers/behaviourists/advice from Dogsey is possibly very overwhelming.
RE the biting, is he actually biting you - i.e. breaking the skin, injuring you - or could it be mouthing? All the dogs I've had (apart from one) have mouthed me during play. Bryan used to do it a lot when he was a puppy, but not so much now.
Puppies mouth a lot sometimes - it's their way of playing and exploring the world.
But if it's proper biting - meant to cause you harm - then that must be really difficult for you and for me, I would be finding it hard to trust Woody.
I hope you are ok x
Originally Posted by Moobli
As my post has been moved (and some of it was off topic, sorry!) I will reiterate the on topic bit here ...
Pidge - I am not going to try and offer any advice, as you have already had more than enough and your head must be bursting.
What I would say is that Moss (my working bred collie) was like Woody without the aggression and was a complete nightmare as a pup/teenager. Work sorted him out. I wonder if Woody would show such problem behaviour and traits if he were to work. I understand you want to keep him and try and sort through his issues to the best of your ability, but please don't consider having him pts before you offer him to the police or as a working gundog for a gamekeeper or the like.
No-one could work harder than you have and are doing with Woody, but unfortunately sometimes hard work and love are just not enough I hate to sound so negative, and I TRULY do hope you manage to keep Woody and resolve his issues, so he becomes a happy and well-adjusted adult.
He means the absolute world to me and of course if I feel in the end it is the right thing for him then I will do it but right now I am trying to fight to make it work and give him a happy home, with loving owners, clear boundaries and consistency. As well as all those lovely walks and swims he gets and enjoys so much with us.
Now I'm ****ing crying again!!
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12-05-2009, 07:00 PM
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Location: Wiltshire, UK
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12-05-2009, 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by Lizzy23
pidge at 81/2 months i would take him off the puppy food and on to adult at a couple of times a day nearly 28% protein could be sending him a bit haywire, i don't even feed that high protein during the working season, if he's old enough to be castrated he's old enough to go on adult food
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12-05-2009, 07:12 PM
Chill.
If you chill Woody will too.
All I can say is instead of focusing on what he does wrong, what is bad about yuor relaitonship...why not work out what you want? Prioritise what you want from Woody. If you are clear about what your expectations of him are...you will then be able to let him know.
Calm down. Relax, destress...and focus on the future...what is it you want of a dog? What rules does a dog in your home need (now and in the future if you want Pidglets...)Work out a handful of must have rules and concentrate on those behaviours, whilst relaxing.
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12-05-2009, 07:51 PM
A lot to read and think about but in some ways you're probably suffering from information overload right now 
As one or two have said you will get through this. Around here we don't have any dog behaviourists and I wasn't a member of Dogsey so when Bara was going through similar behaviour I just had to shout at OH and she just shouted at me
We got through it and you will too, as always I admire you and I wish you all the best, don't let this upset your long term aims and please don't even think about some of the things that have been mentioned that I can't even bring myself to put in writing but you know what I mean.