ORDER CARNIVORA
FAMILY CANIDAE
DOG FAMILY

General features and members of the family

Skulls, dentition and diet

Canids live mainly but not exclusively on flesh. They have long muzzles well developed jaws and a characteristic dental formula of I 3/3, C1/1, PM 4/4, M 3/2 = 42. The fourth upper premolar and first lower molar exhibit carnassial modification for the shearing of flesh, while crushing molars can handle vegetable foods.

Wolves (Canis lupus) feed mainly but not exclusively on flesh, deer caribou, moose, beaver, hares, domestic livestock and plant material. The carnassial teeth shear flesh; crushing molars process vegetable food.

Just so's there is no doubt as to the authenticity of the statement, I have cut and pasted this from the website of the University of Edinburgh about the skulls and teeth of Canids. I have cut out all the non-relevant bits, and the pictures because they wouldn't have pasted, and I have put in bold the important bits.

There are other references, but they are rather heavy going, this is the best one I could find in laymen's language.

You mentioned that the 0.02% dna difference is 'purely behavioural'. I am afraid it doesn't work like that.

As I mentioned before no one knows for sure what is the ideal diet for our dogs, and importantly every individual is different, (for example my skin is so bad, I need more zinc than the average person). I think us 'natural' feeders are more aware that fresh food is important, and we can see and smell the difference compared to dog-food fed dogs.
We have to do what makes sense to us.

Evie, I think it was you that used the arguement that dogs don't need veg as they can get all they need from liver, something bugged me about that but I couldn't for the life of me remember unti lying in my bed last night.
We would need to feed liver a few times a week to get the benefits, and we don't because it is very very bad to feed regularly.
The liver has the highest dose of toxins (it's the body's filter) and also where all the hormones and antibiotics collect, as all farm animals are drugged and drugged these days. Before organic blah blah blah is mentioned, let's have a think (suggestions welcome). I always try to think common sensically, it has worked for me so far;
after a kill wolves would be eating their prey as a pack, in order of heirarchy - there is only one liver, and between 6+ canids they aren't going to chop it up into little pieces and share it out. Who gets it? And so how frequently is every member of the pack eating liver?

In short, I agree with the feeding of veg once of twice a week, pureed/steamed/juiced whatever to our domesticated wolves.

Also not sure if you want to start a new thread, but I would like to know why people keep calling dogs wolves. Why not coyotes? or do they eat too much veg?!!?

how commensensical your post is!!! Written in language even I can understand!!! As I understand it, from my Shaun Ellis lecture, the alpha eats the organs like heart, liver etc. the higher up the social scale the less veg is eaten, and the lower down the scale the more 'rubbish' is eaten. So you are quite right, the rest of the pack rarely, if ever get a look in. the other thing I have learned recently is never to feed liver to a pregnant dog as it has far too much Vitamin A in it, don't know if this has any relevance or not, but thought I would just throw it in!

Whilst not wishing to get drawn into this debate again;
Jess, Liver was used as an example, at as the be all and end all in my post.

Lower pack members eat more fruit, whilst the alpha's get the liver and heart? My two shall continue to dine like alphas.

I am trying to be lighthearted, and more laid back, but at the same time quote facts so that I can be useful. It's hard work - but hay someone has to do it!

I forgot about the vitamin A (there is so much to remember isn't there!) That is a nasty one to have too much of, can cause loads of problems. Humans shouldn't eat to much liver pate either (yuck)
Sometimes I forget why I decided to do something in the first place, I just get into the habit of doing or not doing that thing, and then have to think back over how we got to that conclusion. I will put it down to old age and finite gray cells.

That is your choice, but that is not proof alone that the alpha is the healthier - in fact, do we even know that the alpha takes the organs?! Perhaps he leaves the yuck for the others.
I am shaking my head again that we are comparing our dogs to WILD animals. Captive animals tend to live longer... because of less stress (and I don't mean stress as in mental stress that we talk about daily)

I've not read the whole thread as so much of it has all been said before...so I will do it AA style, I don't feed veg and my dogs are still kicking after 2 years and are doing incredibly well on a well balanced diet.

you don't feed veg mys?
Do you use any supplements? Can you give us an idea of what you feed in a week/month? (Not weights etc, just the type of food stuffs and how your dogs get vits and mins)

I used to give Hal 1 or 2 very small bits of liver every day with his cod liver oil capsules hidden in them - sometimes the old git would still manage to get the capsules out of the liver, spit them out and eat the liver, in order to get another piece. I was always very aware that they must not eat too much liver - it actually gave Hal the dreadful runs if he did - so when this happened, I'd open his jaws and shove the capsules down his throat as gently as I could but in a firm fashion, if this makes sense !!

Hal was fed on Supa Greyhound Racer kibble for about 5 years, and seemingly was doing incredible well Mys. We have to be incredibly careful IMO when feeding BARF that we do it properly and, according to Billinghurst, that is feeding a SMALL amount of raw pureed veg. As you will see if you look back through this thread, I have been very outspoken on this subject as I believe so passionately in a balanced diet for our domesticated wolves, and in the process upset one or two people, for which I do and have apologised, so I don't want WW3 to break out again.

The way I look at it is this. It is not going to hurt your beautiful guys to feed them a little pureed veg now and then, it is not expensive, and it is not difficult, so even if I thought it was a bloody waste of time, I would still do it, just to be on the safe side. I take a handful of vits and minerals every morning; I also eat a pretty healthy, balanced diet, and so probably am wasting my money taking some of these, especially vitamin C, but I do it just to be on the safe side. I take 2 huge bombs of cod liver oil, and 1 with EPA in addition - just to be on the safe side. Of course, we as humans have to be careful not to overdose ourselves and our dogs on such vits as A and D, as these are stored and not excreted out in the waste matter if surplus to requirements, so for instance, one mustn't overdo the carrots. But a dessertspoon a day of pureed raw veg for a dog the size of an NI is not going to hurt them Mys I promise, just the opposite. Your choice me old mucker. How are you by the way? Not "talked" to you for ages !