at the end of the day the dogs are being mentally and physically challenged so that can only be a good thing cant it??? although collies are the usual chose for HTM, if you go to a HTM show there are lots of different breeds. from tiny ones like jack russells to the large breeds like bull mastifs etc. at my HTM class there is only 1 collie and that is the one owned by the trainer.

Whether I breed from my mongrel is no-one's business but mine and the dog's, so I am not going to comment further.

He is described as a ute because that is the "type" that he is - I could just as easily said "ni (northern inuit), but because he is heavy coated, I think he looks more "utonagan" than he does "northern inuit". But to me is a mongrel, or crossbreed, very handsome, very intelligent and very sort-after by both "breeds".

That's that out the way - now to get back to the subject matter. Glad to hear we agree with each other Borderdawn. I am very much enjoying the interesting debate we are all having, but unfortunately have got to go now else I'll lose my job!

Ok pop back when the boss isnt looking.
Dawn.

Personally i dont have a problem with heel work to music,and as you say the dogs seem perfectly happy to do it ,and to be fair arn't we all guilty to a greater or lesser degree of ,asking our dogs to do things they wer'nt intended to do ,like for instance gemma is a gundog but the only "work " she actully does is things like carrying the things i ask her to or maybe delivering small things to different people in different parts of the house , sounds silly but she seems happy enough to do it (for a price ) and im sure all collie owners would agree that that perticular breed really needs to be kept busy to be kept happy ,anyway thats my thinking but i'm happy to disagree without ww111 !

Thank you for your reply. As far as I can see, HTM is 'fun tricks and close heelwork to music'. We haven't got as far as the music bit yet, but Eddy loves learning the moves (he's 12 so doesn't go on his back legs although he does sit back on his haunches and put his paws up).

If you can find something else that Eddy will enjoy you're welcome to, I've tried all sorts, including buying books on games to play but he's not interested. He loves learning these tricks, and I, for one am not going to take them away from him.

Borderdawn, am I wrong in thinking you believe dogs should simply be doing the job they were bred for and nothing else?

If so I'm obviously incredibly cruel as my dogs live in the house rather than living out in a stable guarding the horse that I don't have. They don't run alongside a carriage as I don't have one, and they do all sorts of terrible things like HTM tricks, walking on a lead and agility.

I agree I wouldn't want to see dogs on their back legs for a prolonged period of time, but Stormey, in answer to your reply, Takara doesn't just stand on the back legs. My two dogs play together, bouncing around on their back legs. Takara also loves playing 'boxing' with my dad, the game that she taught him and involves bouncing around on her back legs, punching him with her forefeet.

I'd far rather see dogs enjoying themselves doing HTM than certain breeds doing what they were bred for like fighting or chained up outside guarding a farm. Strange I know, but just my opinion.

As for the dogs only doing it because they want to please their handler, and not because they enjoy it. Does that mean it's cruel for a little girl to bring her mum a bunch of flowers for mother's day. She doesn't get anything out of going and buying those flowers, it's not the highlight of her day, but she gets pleasure out of pleasing her mum.

Not much difference really - Most dogs love to work for praise and please their owners - it's what makes most of them tick.

Lottie, I dont know eddy(have seen him, very cute) so i would not dare start saying things you should play with him.

With Takara, she jumps on her back legs off her own back and thats fine, after all we all have or had dogs that do things that may not be good for them, the problem i have is a lot of dogs involved in htm competatively may not do and are being made to it therefore its unnatural. I also think the amount of training that must go into htm there will be a lot of dogs spending prolonged periods bouncing, i have also seen acts where alot of the act revolves around the dog walking on its back legs.

If someone wants to do htm as a way to train and exercise their dogs i dont have a problem with, but when their is competions which involve being judged i feel you will start getting people pushing their dogs to far and like i said before you may start getting the owners who are using it as an outlet for themself rarther than there dogs.

I think what i am trying to say is its ok if used as a training method and the dogs are not made to do things they would not normally do. But the whole competion thing i think will cause a lot of problems.

I think HTM is a great way to stimulate and exercise dogs aswell as a way to bond and enjoy time with the dog. Obviously owners need to respect the dog, not do anything that could hurt it or anything it doesn't enjoy. But that applies to all things, not just this. Yes some owners do it more for their own benefit than the dogs, but most dogs learning will really enjoy it.

I don't think teaching tricks is really any different from teaching a dog to sit at roads, walk nicely on a lead or play fetch with a ball.
As long as the dog enjoys being taught I don't see a problem.

alot of people have mentioned about doing HTM as an outlet for themselves rather than the dogs. could that not be said for agility, obedience, showing etc? do some parents not push their children into doing things that maybe the child doesnt want to do because they didnt or couldnt do it when they were younger??

also some people have said that HTM is just circus tricks. so does that apply to support dogs then? all they're taught when you break it down are tricks. they dont get rewards for doing it, they do it to please US and to help US!

To be honest, what is wrong with circus tricks, entertainment etc using animals, we do it all the time.

The objection to circus use of animals I assume has always been the caging and maybe cruelty in training methods (especially with wild animals).

Our partnership with dogs has always been about using their abilities for our gain or pleasure, their companionship has only been additional to this, and only in recent times their prime reason for being kept for some people.

If the dogs gets a good life, is trained fairly with kindness then what is the issue????