I'm sorry DB, my lunchbreak is well overdue to end, I will try and have a look tonight, but honestly, this thread keeps growing and growing, and I just can't keep up with it and answer all the questions individually I am afraid.

I think I will just have to resort to what I was doing before - posting regular bulletins.

Incidentally, OH reports another very successful and happy morning walk in this brilliant sunshine!

We got Ben in June. When I actually added it up, I realised it is nearly 9 months ago

Maths was never my strong point, but go on, accuse me of lying now why don't you.

I have a few questions for you Gnasher..
In view of Ben's history and your 40 years of experience with dogs, do you think grabbing the collar of an abused /fearful dog who was likely to have very little trust in humans was the correct thing to do and what allowances were made for his past.

what steps did you take to introduce and integrate the dogs .

So if Ben didn't run away he always returned then. Why do you think he started to run off, what steps did you take to build trust with Ben an abused dog and to reinforce his returning to you..
what was suggested/what did you try/how did you know they wouldn't work.

.... and what a defeatists attitude particularly when you say at one stage Ben was ok off the lead. Why couldn't you do what other people do and let Ben off lead in secure contained areas where there is no stock. Why does it have to be all or nothing for this poor dog.

..you were so convinced the other methods would not work, why should the e collar be different? Is it because it offered the chance of a quick fix instead of hard work?

I am not surprised, Ben went to bite your husband so clearly there is little trust there and it would be natural for him to wish to escape humans who have caused him pain.
There are no 'exceptional circumstances' to Ben's behaviour that I can see or that you have told us about just a fearful abused dog who runs off. I have news for you Gnasher that is normal behaviour for many dogs and understandable for a dog like Ben. I personally don't believe an abused and fearful dog can have a behaviour permanently and successfully changed by a few carelessly administered painful shocks. I doubt we will get a true picture of the real consequences of your actions in any updates . You have previously admitted to twisting the truth to suit your needs and are unlikely to admit you are wrong, or to anything which doesn't fit in with your 'perception' of what happens to Ben.

I might be missing something (apologies - I don't have time to trawl through the whole thread just now) but can anyone tell me - was Ben shocked twice during a walk for running off, and has somehow stopped biting when his collar was pulled and fighting with Tai because of this?

Excellent. Once I know what stands I'm on and when, I'll let you know. Alternatively, just say hello and introduce yourself if you see us!

I'll be there in support of Pets As Therapy with Roxy - my crazy rescue dog who was trained by me using positive methods after being blitzed with an electric shock collar and is now a different dog.

See you there!

I'll be there Saturday.

Excellent. Once I know what stands I'm on and when, I'll let you know. Alternatively, just say hello and introduce yourself if you see us!

I'll be there in support of Pets As Therapy with Roxy - my crazy rescue dog who was trained by me using positive methods after being blitzed with an electric shock collar and is now a different dog.

See you there!

Maybe see you then? Ill be showing and on the DD stand in the morning.

Seeing as Zeff is indesputably part Saarloos, or entire Saarloos (sorry Tassle, I've forgotten which!), then of course he is a wolf cross. Why the joking?

what about answering my questions?
I thought you werent noticing my posts but you noticed that one lol

If Zeff if part Saarloos then he is a dog not a wolf and so he would be able to be trained as a dog surely? (without an e-collar, which of course wolves dont use on their young)