of course the collars hurt to work..how else would they....otherwise the same people would use a noise or clicker

With the greatest of respect. Unless you have tried an ecollar then how can you know how it feels?

Again I will try to give a balanced view, all of my dogs will raise their feet for me to inspect if they feel me run my hand down their leg (my horses did too). That is dog training by "sensation" or "touch" . It didn't hurt them in any way, but they learnt the sequence of events and respond to the sensation accordignly and obligingly.

It doesn't have to HURT to get a response.

I don't often reply on these topics, because, as said, it raises temperatures quite a lot!

A really well thought out original post though, although I haven't had time to read it fully, but it's prompted me to post a couple of thoughts.

Electric collars shouldn't be used by the general public, only under the guidance or by a qualified expert, and therein lies the problem, the vast majority of dog trainers just aren't qualified. You can buy qualifications off the internet, and who would police them?

Why do I think this? Because I've seen several dogs with severe behavioural problems benefit with long term training and shock collars formed part of that, as did pinch collars. The ONLY alternatives for these dogs were either to be put to sleep, or to be taken on by an experienced trainer who could handle their problems 24/7 without the need to use a shock collar as an aid. There are problems with both those, the first is a bit obvious, the second, well, how many problem dogs are there, particularly from rescue where it's uncertain how their problems have escalated, and then see how many you think will find homes with experienced dog handlers, it just ain't gonna happen.

I know that won't be popular, and yes, there are other ways of training dogs, etc, etc, but these dog owners were not lazy, they attended regular training, but simply did not have the timing and handling skills away from a training environment to deal with these dogs. One of them was so unpredictable you could really have argued it should never have been rehomed, particularly to such a weak dog handler, but then that's an issue for the rescue organisations.

The other reason I'm not hugely concerned about shock collars being used in the right circumstances, is we buy all sorts of training devices that are acceptable, and yet they too cause pain. Many of the head collars clamp around the muzzle, causing pain and discomfort, and a poorly fitted/made harness can rub and cause pain; dogs can't tell us this is the case, sometimes their behaviour alters because of a halti/harness, trying to get them off, and yet they are still deemed acceptable?? Citronella collars are no better than shock collars, dogs have such a strong sense of smell I think it's a horrible device, and yet in many peoples' minds it seems somehow more acceptable??

I'm firmly on the fence with this one, I have seen the benefits of them being used correctly, but they are open to such misuse is it worth it??

actually yes i have felt an e-collar

then a vibrating collar would be what you needed not a shock collar...that doesnt take a trainer or behaviourist to work that one out.

How very very sad. All these people admitting to using pain to train. You can train a dog with a club or a whip, course you can. But all that proves is something about yourself.
I have never needed to hurt my dogs to train them. I have also never needed to lie to myself that (a) it doesn`t hurt or (b) it`s for their own good.
Cruelty is still cruelty if you get paid to inflict it, you know.

Forgive me Tupacs2legs. Again with respect, I dont understand your second paragrgaph. I would need a vibrating collar for what?

No offence intended in any of my posts. I didn't understand that you have previously tried an ecollar?

Dx

................................

Electric collars shouldn't be used by the general public, only under the guidance or by a qualified expert, and therein lies the problem, the vast majority of dog trainers just aren't qualified. You can buy qualifications off the internet, and who would police them?

Why do I think this? Because I've seen several dogs with severe behavioural problems benefit with long term training and shock collars formed part of that, as did pinch collars. The ONLY alternatives for these dogs were either to be put to sleep, or to be taken on by an experienced trainer who could handle their problems 24/7 without the need to use a shock collar as an aid. There are problems with both those, the first is a bit obvious, the second, well, how many problem dogs are there, particularly from rescue where it's uncertain how their problems have escalated, and then see how many you think will find homes with experienced dog handlers, it just ain't gonna happen.

I know that won't be popular, and yes, there are other ways of training dogs, etc, etc, but these dog owners were not lazy, they attended regular training, but simply did not have the timing and handling skills away from a training environment to deal with these dogs. One of them was so unpredictable you could really have argued it should never have been rehomed, particularly to such a weak dog handler, but then that's an issue for the rescue organisations.

The other reason I'm not hugely concerned about shock collars being used in the right circumstances, is we buy all sorts of training devices that are acceptable, and yet they too cause pain. Many of the head collars clamp around the muzzle, causing pain and discomfort, and a poorly fitted/made harness can rub and cause pain; dogs can't tell us this is the case, sometimes their behaviour alters because of a halti/harness, trying to get them off, and yet they are still deemed acceptable?? Citronella collars are no better than shock collars, dogs have such a strong sense of smell I think it's a horrible device, and yet in many peoples' minds it seems somehow more acceptable??
I'm firmly on the fence with this one, I have seen the benefits of them being used correctly, but they are open to such misuse is it worth it??

no i havnt tried one!!!! i have felt one!

to train by sensation