It's the operator that fits the collar to the dog. It's the operator that decides how long it stays on the dog and it's the operator who is responsible for moving the collar at intervals (as recommended) and for checking the skin area frequently. The operator is a very big important factor and yet I've seen on other forums that even experienced trainers often ignore these guidelines and leave collars on for longer than recommended - trainers, not inexperienced users. Frightening, isn't it.

What happens in reality is that many buy a collar off the internet, stick it on the dog and turn up the dial. Many don't even read the instructions that come with it further than how to fit the batteries. Even more frightening.

Most dogs that end up PTS on behavioural grounds have never been near a behaviourist or trainer - if only!

It would be difficult for the owner to 'go underground' for many of the problems they are seeking the 'magic pill' for. Taking the dog in a public area wearing a collar would risk prosecution. Most of the problems they are used for are 'easy fixers' without the need for physical aversives and with the more difficult problems, there's no guarantees that the collar will have any effect or, indeed, that they won't make problems worse or new problems appear so the proposition of abandonment/PTS is just applicable in this respect. The 'do or die' argument is a common one put forward by e-collar trainers and users and one that both salves consciences and gains them support which is, of course, the intention.

Or passion. There are many responsible and very good trainers who just want to ensure that any regulation brought in is in the best interests of both dogs and owners. These responsible trainers would welcome effective regulation.

Yep, we are definitely going to have to agree to disagree because 'IF' is the key word and the 'IF' doesn't happen nearly so regularly and some would have us believe. In fact, very often dogs that could be easily saved are screwed by the aversives that impatient owners would be guaranteed to give them up. Some are lucky and end up in the hands of those that are willing to work with the dog, most aren't

Sorry, it's just one of my soap-box issues. I hate when us humans justify hurting dogs in the name of training so it's a subject I will debate long and hard.

What is good is that our discussions have hopefully shown that issues can be discussed without nastiness taking place so thank you also

So are you saying that you find it perfectly OK for any member of the GP to be able to get their hands on a e collar for as little as £10 because there are videos on youtube and they can buy videos and instructions?
- even tho they are all contadictory? in a v small search I did one said not to be used for agression problems, another talked about a 'correction shock' others how rewarding they were, others how the new features means if you hold the button longer the shock gets more intense
they also talk about how adjustable the pins are to take into account the thickness of the dogs coat - but some say it shouldnt be in contact with the skin, some say it should and some dont mention it

Glad I dont use one - all confusing

did you read what you wrote Adam, the part that both myself and (I think) Minihaha quote back to you? I don't think it can be interpreted any other way as your statement was quite clear

Such a patronising statement from an e-collar user who does not have the faintest clue about science or how his chosen instrument works. Spare us, Adam, please.

I can go one better than that. I know of one e-collar user and trainer that was banned from a forum run by another e-collar user and trainer because they disagreed on method of use

A ban won't change much imo.

You can buy collars from abroad and they usually ship marked training collar or whatever, no mention of e.

Most modern e collars are quite small, put them on a medium coated dog and the reciever disappears. If you keep the remote in your pocket people wouldn't know a thing!

I and my clients are open about our use of collars, but I know people who have been part of a training/walking group that has a bad attitude to them and who use them.
They hide it under a thick leather collar (even on smooth haired types) and keep the remote out of sight, no one knows!

Also spray collars, pager collars all a black/grey box on the neck!

A ban will drive use underground and prevent people getting practical education on the subject.

Adam

Your earlier quote, Adam:

Where does that mention that the study was held while the study design met the approval of one of the main parties involved??

What you do say is quite clear:

"Professor Mills of Lincoln University, was confronted by ECMA and as a result he then had to contact DEFRA and tell them he did not know enough about collars to continue a study contract for DEFRA"

This is a LIE at best and a LIE at worst!!

It is such a shame, Adam (Denam/Adis) that you are unable to hold your own and have to resort to being spoonfed by your master. He is not too convincing either.

Don't think they're getting much now Adam, which is why this whole thread exists.

Practical education - ah yes, that would involve practicing using e-collars on dogs. Repeatedly. That's a learning technique, isn't it, repetition?

So you're not talking about using the collars for saving dogs about to be put to sleep; let's be clear - you are talking about learning e-collar skills, using dogs.