Zane's behaviour at the vets surgery today

Hi All,
I think I'll start with a bit of history. I apologise in advance for the length of the post.

Zane (& the other dogs I have) have never had a problem going to see the vet. They get fuss, praise, treats and generally when they need to go, they practically drag me through the door to get inside.

Last October (or thereabouts) Zane was playing with a rescue dog I had here at the time - Murphy (Rough Collie X GSD). They were play fighting in the kitchen and making a lot of noise which was nothing unusual for those two.

At one point Zane jumped down, whimpering. I thought maybe he'd knocked himself against a cupboard or big trolley thingy I have. Anyway, all the play fighting and mucking about stopped then.

Zane came and sat next to me whining and clearly in some pain and discomfort. He was trying to paw at his mouth, as though something was stuck but I couldn't see what. It looked as though his bottom jaw had been taken off and put back in the wrong place so that resulted in a very expensive trip to the vets.

Ther were 2 vets that looked at him but neither could see what the problem was. They gave me a choice - Zane could either come home with me then and there with painkillers and see how he was the next day, or I could leave him, have him sedated and the vets could take a proper look at his mouth without him trying to stop them or getting his paws in the way.

I chose for him to be sedated to have a proper exam to make sure it was dealt with. As Zane was thrashing about, they couldn't sedate him whilst I was there, for his safety and their own. He was trying to hide behind my legs. They asked me to muzzle him so I could leave him which I did do. The muzzle they gave me seemed a little on the small side but I thought for the sake of a minute or 2 so they can get him to be quiet, it wouldn't make much difference.

I put it on him but couldn't do it up. The vet said it wasn't a problem and they would do it. As I left I saw the look on Zane's face. He clearly thought I was leaving him, in pain, when he needed me the most.

Just before I turned to go the one vet (who doesn't get to see my dogs now) pulled the muzzle tight. Then the door close so I couldn't see Zane. He almost screamed when this was done.

I returned after about an hour and a half to pick him up. The dopey dog had somehow managed to impale his top lip on his eye tooth. I suppose when the muzzle was pulled tight it forced his lip further along his tooth - thus putting Zane in complete agony. I hated myself for allowing this to happen but nobody could see what he'd done and I can't change what happened.

Zane was next at the vet's surgery in March for his booster jab. He wasn't happy to be there and growled at the vet when he approached Zane. He was muzzled but stayed quiet after that. One he'd had the jab the muzzle was taken off and he had treats from the vet he saw.

Since then I've taken him maybe on average, once a week to the vet. Not for any real reason other than to get him used to being there. He needs to understand that being there doesn't need to be a bad thing so we've waited in the waiting room for a few minutes and out of surgery hours been allowed to walk around the surgery. Zane is allowed to sniff at practically anything and anyone he chooses to so by now he should be used to being there.

This morning, I had to take him for his assessment in order for him to formally start his assistance dog training. he failed miserably. the vet has reported that he has a poor temperament (which isn't true but I know they have to go by what they see) and that he's aggressive. Zane was muzzled, at the vet's request (fair enough). The vet called Zane to him and that was no problem at all. Then Zane moved slightly and the vet tried to stand behind him - almost the same as when he damaged his top lip. Zane growled constantly after that and when the vet tried to listen to his chest Zane turned to bite. I'm sure that if he wasn't wearing the muzzle he would have bitten the vet, but at the same time I think that being muzzled with the vet standing behind him made the situation worse for him.

Zane has been put into all sorts of different, unknown and challenging situations and is no more aggressive that a field mouse. If anything, he's a big wimp!

So, my question is - what do I do abut this? training him to be an assistance dog isn't really an issue. I know what tasks he has to do and I can train him myself anyway to fetch the phone when it rings etc. What concerns me is his reaction to the vet. What happens next time he needs treatment? I can always continue to take him so he spends time there without anything at all happening to him but over time, he seems to be getting worse. Is it worth maybe seeing what he's like at a different vet's surgery? Maybe a differnet environment, even with many of the same or similar smells, may help a little.

Obviosuly taking him many times to the same place isn't working. I've tried distracting him with toys, trreats, fuss, praise, even taking one of the other dogs iwth me too. Nothing has worked so far.

Today wasn't the end of the world as I know there's nothing wrong with him. But if the vet can't get anywhere near him to treat him should it be necessary, what do I do then?

Laura xx

As you say Laura the vet can only assess what he sees.

Have you tried using a different vet as clearly long before this you sound unhappy with your vet

I am sorry but this would be a obvious thing for me, if he continues to mis-behave at vets then IMO you'll have to invest in a muzzle and see it is on before you go in, so Zane is aware that the vets is not guilty of muzzling.

Maybe (and I mean this sincerely) you might have to think that Zane doesn't like being messed with by strangers, as simple as.....

He growled at the judge at a fun dog show, and I know you could probably sit and explain every growl with an excuse, but you just may IMO have to face facts that he isn't (as I say) keen on being messed with by anyone but you.

My previous dog Max was a darling anyone could fuss him and the vets once after he had been neutered and he had bitten all his stitches out took him off on his own and without sedation stapled him back up he accepted anything without a murmer.

Ollie has hated strangers touching him from day one he was fine when with his litter mates and both his parents have excellent temperaments and typical bernese love a fuss and lean on you. Not Ollie now nothing has ever happened to him and sometimes I just can't understand him, there are some people he loves and others he will have nothing to do with and at the vets he has to be muzzled and Gorden always has to be with me because sometimes it can take 3 of us to hold him.

I just get on with it now there is possibly something in his breeding way back that makes him like this I don't know but this is Ollie he loves us, our two Sons and the Grandchildren anyone else I always err on the side of caution and just accept him for what he is. He use to be fine at the vets no one at the vets has hurt him but as he gets older he gets more temperamental. I have done everything with Ollie that I did with Max.

Like Steph says sometimes we just have to accept they do not like strangers touching them and deal with it in the best and the safest way we can. I sympathise with you as I know exactly what its like.

I sympathise too, as Lynn said.

But my son has two GSD, both fine with family members, yet they both have different personalities.

Sabre was at 8 months kenneled at the Blue Cross after her owner was in a RTA, the family never notified them of the owners death until she was 14 months, Sabra had major issues, brought on by simply being in kennels.
Steven had to work hard with her to resolve the issues, and although he has had her now 9 years, she still has a major fear of kennels. This is something that has to be just excepted and when he goes away, whilst his other GSD and BC can be kennelled Sabre comes here or my other sons, or his MIL's.

I think too we accept to much from vets (the feeling of them knowing best due to professional experience) however recently Helena said herself she took Zena to a vets and wasn't happy with they way Zena was being handled and went back and told them so.

I feel if this is a case (with any owner) you need to tell the vet what you feel. If then your vet has no intention of working with you on these issues, then change.

Dogs in my opinion are like us, they can not like everyone, Bruce has a problem with hoodies at night, but a hoddie has never done anything to him, this is something that I just have to be aware of, and as he growls as they are walking past, I reassure him, and walk on, he still doesn't like them so me being aware of the problem is half the battle in my opinion. I can not stop them from walking down the road, I just don;t subject him to huge gangs of hoodies.

Hi,

I see where you're both coming from but Zane doesn't indiscriminately growl at strangers when they touch him. The ONLY time he growls at the vet is when he's in the consulting rooms being examined. Every visit beforehand when he's not been there for anything specific to try to get him used to it has resulted in the vets, nurses, receptionists and on a few occasions, the cleaner making a fuss of him. I'm assuming that putting him back in almost the same szsituation as he was when he hurt his mouth is why he's like this. I'm certainly not making excuses for him.

As far as the fun dog show was concerned, the judge had already messed about with him - looked in his ears, checked his teeth, run her hands down his body. He didn't growl when she approached him, only when she ran her hands down his back legs where he was cut (and possible still sore) after that stupid spat he had with Ellie a couple of days before.
Zane has been to dog shows since then with different people, dogs and judges without any growling or any negative reactions to anything or anyone.

Like I said - I don't make excuses for him. But I will try to work out why he does it. After all, there must be a reason for it. Being approached or touched by strangers doesn't bother him. It never has. And I think if that itself was the problem, he'd growl at everyone, regardless of who they were or their reasons for touching him and he just doesn't do it.

I didn't see the need to change the vet he sees because the one who pulled the muzzle on tight doesn't work at the same surgery now - he's at the Coleshill branch. The vets that see Zane now are those that have known him since he was 6 weeks old and the same people who fuss him and mess about with him and handle him every time I take him, without any growling. This is why I think it's being put in that same situation that sets him off. If going to a different vet will help Zane NOT growl or not get stressed enough to feel he has to defend himself in some way, then I'll do it (assuming someone can recommend a good vet for me )

Laura xx

Sounds as if the negative experience has not done him any good.

Ollie does not growl or take exception to all people this is what baffles us, he absolutely adores you or dislikes you and is happy for people to be near him as long as they do not touch, no idea why he is like this but he is so we have to always be aware.

I hope you can sort the vet issue out with him.

A good plan then laura would be to ask the vets to work with you.

Explain that you don;t want this behaviour to continue and see if them handing him treats etc., over a period will help. See if your vet will reward him after examination, so he is aware the trip to the vets is good.

Sorry I may seem alittle blarsa but I (this is me) if I know where the problem lies, then i would enlist thier ''on board help''

Hi,

I'm bakc at the vets with Yiannis on MOnday so I'll ask then if they can suggest anything else.

Clearly allowing Zane to go into the surgery outside of hours with only staff there so he can walk about and sniff things at his leisure hasn't worked.

Maybe being examined in a different room he's not already been in may work. I'll ask.

Laura xx

I think that is well worth a try. You are in the very fortunate position of knowing where the problem lies, many people are not that foruntate.

I am sure if you said to your vets ''I don't want Zane to carry on with this behaviour and as he gets older feeling that it is acceptable'' they would be only too happy to work along with you.

have you tried getting your OH to take him, maybe he will not pick up so much (ie is your stressed/worried about it) as sometimes a different person taking them can also resolve the tension

I'm wondering if it's the muzzle that is causing the reaction. From what you say he seems to be fine with the vet on your training visits. Do you have a vet that is confident enough to examine him without the muzzle?