What a load of tosh, I have a friend who had a GSD(English LC obedience lines)x WSD whose Protection WT work was outstanding, his courage was excellent & had he not died from either a torsion/bloat aged 4 he would have been a PD WT Ch(he already had one TD CC)

We had an import from a mix of working/showlines & his offspring were excellent working dogs as well as winning in the showring & also many became licensed service dogs. He himself was a very laid back dog at home & yet could produce the goods when asked & he came to the UK as a puppy.

I had 2 GSDs that both were WT trained, but didn't compete because I didn't have the time due to other commitmants. My showline GSD(from 2 showline imports)certainly never lacked courage, drive & stamina He took out a mugger who attempted to hit me with a metal bar & detained him until the police arrived some 45 minutes later, he was hit on the head with the bar once just before he grabbed the mugger by his"family jewels"& squeezed them hard until I called him off, My dogs could certainly do the job. The Notherth Yorkshire Police tried to buy my dog from me after they attended scene of the mugging

I also had a WT trained BC who I retired at UD level as she was under the size for doing the full scale & would have had to do so for WD upwards, she was however protection trained & never backed off from WT criminals.

The protection phase in VPG is a test of the dogs courage & obedience, dogs fail for not releasing on command, which rarely happens in WTs protection phase, certainly service dogs in the UK are not trained up to the same level of obedience in protection work as can be seen at the Police dog trials when the dogs don't come off on command

In the early nineties we had a gsd gifted in ,he was from a local showline to us,he had been shown previous to coming to us but used to suck his tail so had to stop cos his tail was nearly bald! He was a fab police dog and did not lack courage or drive!we had another one gifted from the same breeder but differant owner that was very aggressive and unpredictable he went to the army and loved his job

I'm not talking about dogs in the 90's...the showlines have changed so much its unreal since then. This is my point. Tell me a CURRENT showdog that doesnt have working lines in its pedigree or obedience for that matter as quite often obedience lines have working stock through them that has the necessary traits to compete highly in Schutzhund for instance....

No one who wants to compete at the highest level in VPG would buy a showline GSD, just the same way that anyone who wanted an old fashioned Alsatian type wouldn't buy a working bred GSD

The red quote above doesn't make sense, very few Obedience(usually longcoats)have any German bloodlines at all, they are mainly bred back to the Alsatian type. To date I have only met 3 Working bred GSDs competiting in Obedience & one of them is Eastern European lines & has a head like a Malinois !! Of course the Czech GSDs do have a touch of Mal in their lines

Yes long coats usually.... as in they haven't been touched by show people and have been bred for a purpose....Obedience ie...work. Old type of Alsation was a working dog was it not? So therefore if bred from old type lines I see this as working lines....doesnt necessarily mean the type of working lines from abroad.

No Alsatian type means the overly long, overly deep cheated saggy toplined shortlegged dogs from the type seen exclusively here in the UK still-lousy temperaments & zilch working ability

The Obedience dogs has a mass of problems of their own-dwarfism, epilepsy, lack of full health testing. TBH just about any dog with the right amount of intensive training can do well in obedience, the high kicking style of the Obedience GSDs is certainly something that has been bred into them as it is nowhere to be seen anywhere else in GSDs

My showline GSD that went to the police was definitely not lacking in any area & lead to so many of the sires offspring being wanted & bought by the police & the sire being used by the police themselves

I give up on this thread...no one has yet to give me a name and pedigree of a current showline dog that has all attributes required in a working dog. I'm thoroughly bored! Ive asked one question over and over and had no response...its not worth my time of day as I am genuinely interested where these dogs are.

Give me a couple years

You give me a current work line dog that doesnt have showlines within 8 gens that is well known with the traits you are talking about

My current one out of Hausmailand Odaxa by Daro of Anseong is not weak tempered neither does he lack courage - just because I prefer to do therapy work with him doesnt mean he isnt capable of doing anything else, he is gunsure, even tempered visits acute psychiatric wards and is also a blood donor (one of the few GSDs that is) he has to have the correct temperment to be able to do what he does.

Goodbye.............