I agree with SB and Jackbox the family courts are the only way to go and I do have to say if someone had even mentioned in passing trying to take my kids away from me to live with them permanently I would have made their life hell too. Never try to come between a mum and her kids no matter how rubbish a parent you might think she is. All I can say is make the trips, be polite, smile and bend over backwards to only say positive things about his mum in his presence. It doesn't matter at all whether or not she's horrid, she's his mum, he loves her, so big her up, he'll love you for it. Talk to her through mediation if possible, by letter if not, and apologise and say it was only frustration at not seeing enough of him that prompted the talk of him living with you. You will have to be the bigger people if you want to carry on seeing him. It makes no difference whether he could have a better life with you, she's his mum and no one can replace her.

Thanks so much for that I think you're right in that they are very similar...maybe they are related

Thanks Lynn I think it is quite difficult because I can see it tearing Clive apart and, although it would be easy for me to say let them get on with it and see if Daniel comes to his senses, I know what it would do to Clive to not be able to have any contact with Daniel...he is such a good provider for him but Daniel just seems totally disinterested at times

Also it's just normal behaviour for kids not to be interested in their parents, it really doesn't mean anything. I think you and Clive tend to over analyse everything which is understandable because you're not in control of the situation his ex is. So what if she's jealous of what you have, or that he's moved on and his life is on the up and hers isn't, that's all pretty normal too. I'm sure she's not really jealous, she did leave him even if it didn't work out quite as she expected and life is now hard work and not what she was expecting.
No matter what you do, Daniel may chose not to see his dad as he gets older. My youngest is 22 and has very little contact with his dad. I think it's a faze, he thinks his dad is an ar*ehole. His dad isn't, he's done nothing wrong, quite the opposite tbh he was still contributing to his upkeep up until this year. I think he'd think the same if me and his dad were still together to be fair, but I think he'll get over it. His dad does stick his foot in it sometimes and what really annoys my son is whenever they met up my ex always brought his new gf and her daughter, their is never any time for just him. He doesn't have anything against either the gf or her daughter but doesn't want them foisted on him all the time, he wanted some father son time, just the two of them.
My OH's daughter is 25 and should know better but recently accused her dad of wrecking her mums life, by having an affair with me while he was still married. He was already divorced when I met him and she knows when and where we met. Her mum left him as she was having an affair and went on to have a baby with her new man. etc. So if kids in their twenties can get it so wrong, no wonder poor Daniel is confuzzeled, cut the boy some slack, seriously just let him be, no pressure from either of you.

Yes, I get what you're saying...I would imagine any mum would fight tooth and nail to keep her child with her when there has been a split, one thing I didn't mention is that, when it was discussed, Clive had said that Daniel could see his mum as often as he wanted, if it was every weekend, &/or a couple of evenings a week after school, it was no problem, he just wanted to make sure these next few important years at school and moulding for his future would be the best he could get. It all started when Daniel was moaning about his mum not allowing him to go out with friends after school, or go to clubs etc., she said that she wasn't giving up her time to take him anywhere...she only works 2 nights a week! That was what prompted the conversations, Daniel seemed unhappy, he will be starting the high school in September and the timing seemed right, (this was over the Christmas period last year). Had he not been so unhappy then it wouldn't have been mentioned, it certainly hadn't crossed my mind to have him live with us, although I can see now that Clive had wanted it for some time.

All through these school holidays we have asked her when would be convenient for us to have him, so that it fits in with any plans she may have, when we booked our wedding last year we had a few dates and had to run them past her first to see if she would allow Daniel to be with us for it...everything we do, absolutely everything, is worked out around her.

It is very frustrating but I can see exactly where you're coming from...Clive's main point is that she has had him with her for over 11 years and he feels that it's about time he got a look in...he also feels that he has had to dance to her tune for all these years when he should be getting on with life and not having anything to do with her except when there are any issues about Daniels welfare.

He gets no help or encouragement with homework or out of school activities, he is left to either play his playstation or watch tv when not at school, he doesn't leave the house other than to meet his friend at the park for an hour or so, with both mums in attendance. He has trouble with his spelling and his writing, both of which I have been helping him with...if he doesn't get the extra help he needs now he is going up to the high school, what hope does he have in finding work when he leaves? That is what Clive is concerned about, he had to go to the junior school just before they left as his ex had told him everything was fine whereas he learned that Daniel doesn't join in, doesn't submit homework other than what he has done when he has been here with us, and is quite happy to sit at the back of the class asleep. His teacher said that the mother had been made aware of this and did nothing, it only came to light when Clive was sent a copy of his report from the school. When asked about it Daniel said that his mum said don't worry, I can get you a job at the care home with me or you can go onto benefits

Clive has no doubts as to his ex wifes ability to provide a loving home for Daniel, what he is doubting is that she will be able to give him the opportunities and encouragement to improve so that he does stand a chance in life and he wants to spend some time with him when, lets face it, we never know what's around the corner.

I fear for Daniel as well as Clive, he is so happy most of the time, but I also see the sadness in his eyes because things can't be sorted so that both parents are happy. We mentioned that it was our turn to have him on Christmas Day this year and whjt we would do...he said his mum wouldn't like that and would put a stop to it, plus he wouldn't get all his pressies If you ask him whether he wishes his parents were together he says no way, he gets to have two of everything and he never has to share because he hasn't any brothers or sisters...little monkey.

I shall just have to let Clive know what you have all said about the mediation, it is up to him then to sort it out with her...then maybe we can get into some sort of routine and stick to it.

Sorry I was posting as you were writing this

I take on board what you're saying...I've never had children of my own so it's all alien to me

Oh Sheree if only the little blighters came with a handbook
I'm not questioning for a minute that you and Clive want whats best for Daniel but sometimes that might need to be stricter boundaries. For instance, it sounds a bit like Daniel plays one off against the other, I'd make it plain that as he lives with his mum, she has the major say over his day to day organisation, activities etc and him being unhappy one day is no reason for him to start talking about moving in with you. It should be made plain that can't happen till he's old enough to decide for himself where he wants to be, and there can be no changing of minds etc once decided. The fact she's had him for 11 years is irrelevant, he's not a parcel to be moved on, in a normal relationship she'd have him till he was 18. I didn't get rid of my eldest till he was 26 . As for xmas day, don't compete, go away or have a romantic meal for just the two of you and have him boxing day or new year, it's just a date, it's not that important. It's only as important as you let it be, celebrate the day as just you two and push the boat out, make a big deal of it as you time. I guess what I'm saying is shift your focus, and don't be bogged down on the nitty gritty of Daniel and the ex.

Thats all so true...I shall have to show it to Clive..as you say, Christmas is only a date, it doesn't really mean anything to us.

Thanks for putting it all into perspective, I've just got off the phone to my mum, apparently my sister is having similar problems with her eldest so aswell as the ex, Clive was probably going to be in for some testing times with Daniel too.

Sheree - I haven't read all of this thread but it does seem that your situation is regretably not unique. As you said at the beginning why of why do people behave in this way

It must be so difficult for you and Clive, wish I could make some helpful suggestions but I can't, keep your chin up and as mentioned above take the high ground, don't go down to her level Ultimatley, in years to come, I think that Daniel will see this and appreciate it.

Thanks Harvey

I suppose it grates on me more because I see the effect this all has on Clive, he bends over backwards to provide for Daniel but seems to have it thrown back in his face

Onwards and upwards eh?

My best friend has been in similar situations for the last 8 years. They bent over backwards with his Ex to make sure he saw the kids etc. They paid for more than they should have done (even when Ex remarried a wealthy man) and have put up with Ex doing some awful things to cause trouble (including sending the kids on a foreign holiday with their suitcases full of dirty, stinking clothes).

Luckily, this has all worked itself out as their daughter is now 20 and has made the choice to live with her dad, not her mum, after eventually seeing everything her mum had done over the years.

My friend used to tell me the stories and then say "Gritting my teeth".... it was the phrase we used to show utter annoyance with the situation, whilst smiling on the outside....