Fair enough, I'd accept that, a prong would teach compliance much quicker than a halti, which just keeps on putting that uncomfortable pressure on walk after walk, how many folks complain their dogs just don't like wearing them?

Don't agree with either, but one works much quicker than the other that's for sure, I do agree with positive training methods, and neither haltis or prong/pinch collars constitute a positve training method for me.

They all cause pressure to some degree. Some are better than others and some suit some dogs better than others.

I would agree that it's easier to start a dog off off-lead, but this, of course isn't always practical for every dog owner other than in a very limited way. We have to make compromises, unfortunately, but I would rather compromise with equipment that causes the least discomfort.

Items that have been developed purely and simply for the human half of the lead to apply pain in the name of training should have no place in any trainer's or owner's tool box

imo thats probably one of the worse case scenarios to use one in

So you agree to train your dogs to some degree of discomfort where it suits you, or that it's acceptable for others?

Well that's another problem altogether - people not learning how to train their dogs (and I hope you're not suggesting that idiot owners should be given a license to abuse their dogs - just because they're too lazy to learn how to train properly I've got a better idea - don't get a dog if you can't be bothered to put the time and effort in).

I don't think my training or handling is that bad but I use a harness on Benj.

Having had 4 years of either total freedom or pulling his owners around it is my choice to get him to and from his free running area by using a no pull harness.

Had I the option and opportunity to rehome him to a wondeful single dog home who could cope with his traffic chasing and lack of lead training and who had unlimited time to take to train him to walk nicely on a lead before he had a run, I might have done so. That wasn't going to happen.

I am quite sure that I could put a prong collar on him and he would walk with me----because it would hurt him so much he would have no choice. As it is he doesn't walk that well but I don't have my arm pulled out and slowly he is learning.

So I'd appreciate it if those who are sitting on little clouds wearing halos and suggesting that all problems stem from the bad training of the present owners took a minute to think before they make such generalised comments.

rune

Of course they cause pain---and higher up the neck is worse. How do you think they work if they don't cause pain?

rune

No, I'm suggesting people don't hide behind the gimmicks sold with many training devices that are apparently harmless. Those nasty prong collars look bad, but how many dogs do you see wearing ill fitting head collars and harnesses as opposed to pinch/prong collars?

Lol,. I take it you mean ME, sat on my little cloud here. Ger a life, and stop making things up about me, if you want to discuss something do, but please don't patronise me.

If the cap fits.....

rune

why have the 'prongs' in the first place if they didnt... unless its some weird 'vulcan' pressure points that are used