Probably been mentioned before but it seems to me there are 2 different issues here:

1. How dogs interact with eachother and whether there is a hierarchy or not.
I have no idea as I've never lived in a multi dog household, so read peoples experiences with interest.

2. If there is a dog hierarchy/pack structure, can we as humans fit into it as the "top dog".
I think not, it's a load of tosh. So what if dogs have a pack structure? That makes little difference to me because I can't act like a dog and make myself understood as dogs do with eachother. Their body language can be so sublte it would be impossible for me to replicate.

There was something else I wanted to say but I've forgotten already......brain clearly frazzled by the sun.

Hi,

I personally think since the very first series, CM has improved in certain areas but not all. In the most recent series he seems to be doing more to help train the owners of dogs but he seems to be treating the dogs themselves much worse.
I don't watch his show anymore since watching without the sound. I got quite upset at seeing the dogs reactions to his way of dealing with them and he seemed to ignore that.

I did see one episode where there was a rottie and GSD. The aprents were clueless but the teenage daughter seemed to know a lot about dogs in general and did very well with dealing with the 2 dogs together. CM didn't roll, string up or hurt these dogs in any way. I've noticed that if he thinks an owner knows a lot about dogs, he doesn't use the harshest of his methods.

I worked hard with my big GSD, Zane so he could go from the puppy class straight to the advanced class, missing out the intermediate class where the trainer uses CMs methods. Thsi is because the trainer decides quite frequently to approach a dog in his class and alpha roll it for seemingly no reason. he doesn't expalin himself to the owners in his group asnd I'm quite sure he doesn't know how the dog will react.

If he did that to Zane, Zane would run away. If he tried it with Ellie or Yiannis, both of whom are about half zane's size, they would certainly bite him.

When CM holds a dog down by it's neck and says that it what another dog will do, he is right but only in certian circumstances. I've seen Zane do this to Yiannis. I haven't stopped it as I see it as communication between the 2 dogs. Something done in such a way that they can do much better than me. And it happens when THEY decide it's appropriate given the situation - not when I decide they've done something wrong and deserve to be pinned.
(Ellie has the good sense to stay under the radar and leaves the 2 boys to get on with it!).

The point made about horses not being pinned I agree with also. My dogs have never been treated like this and along with the point about large dogs being physically stronger than us humans, I'm sure that if my 3 decided to exert themselves physically, I wouldn't stand a chance. The most I could do is either run away (difficult on crutches) or try to defend myself.

I've trained my dogs using positive methods and although it takes longer I believe my dogs are happier for it. I knwo I am.

I think to a great extent CM has to get results quickly, mayb because he's on TV. He has a certain amount of time to get a dog to behave in a certain way before moving onto the next dog. he HAS to get quck fix results otherwise he wouldn't have a TV programme at all. it's taken me ages to train my dogs and I only deal with my 3. If I dealt with as many as CM does, I wouldn't have the time to record TV programmes if I dealt with the dogs properly.

Laura xx

I use so much of what I have learned with horses on dogs,

Yes I can walk away with a dog off lead and get it to follow..

you just need to know how to mould the training a bit to suit dogs, change the body possition a bit,

my first love was horses, I had them long before I had a dog, so it was in some ways all I knew when I got my first dog.

I also use a method similar to join up, the most recent dog I have used this on in training is Kenzo, a very large male rottie who was very reactive to other dogs. {I say was because hes can now be in a hall full of dogs OFF lead without batting an eye} I then followed this with clicker work

Shona,

Your horss are gorgeous. I can't see the mare allowing you near her foal if you're gonna roll her though. rather you than me!!

Laura xx

Good, reasoned post Laura. Nice one!

if this thread is going to get back on track...

poss a good idea would be for those pro-CM listed the things they find helpful about his methods, how they used them, in which sinario they use them and how they worked,
do you need to continue using the method when the behaviour happens, or did using them stop the behaviour full time, that sort of thing,

those anti -CM can do the same with there views??

I tend to keep out of training threads because, compared to some, I feel under read and experienced.

When it comes to training my dogs, past and present, I cherry pick the bits I like instead of following one method. The parts I would take from CM would be his belief in exercising, being calm and treating a dog like a dog. To me these are common sense and what I would expect most trainers or behaviorists to advise. What I dont agree with are his physical interactions re poking, rolling , stringing up etc.
Now Lula does not need firm handling, she is a very gentle, eager to please dog but I can see that CM's methods of domination would work on her as any attention is, in her mind, good attention. Beau is totally different, it took me 6 months for him to totally gain his trust and even now I show him more respect than I have ever done with any of my other dogs. If I tried any of CM harsher methods on him, I would lose this trust and he would be an unpredictable dog to handle. With positive training he is a big, soft, gentle boy.
So IMO CM is not all bad but I feel some of his methods are not good and a couple are down right dangerous.

Just catching up as I have been away all weekend

I have said before - but will say again

THere are good bits of CMs advice - like being calm and exercising and stuff - but as that is what any other trainer will also tell you then that is not CM's methods at all
I have yet to see a positive trainer giving out negative energy

But I believe even though he is talking about being calm and everyting is also bullying and being agressive, all too often we see him in physical fights with dogs trying to get them to submit to him
and you hardly see him with really powerful dogs - and without the use of his illusion collar choking the air and blood from the dog he would not win these battles

It is not just oppinion that the dogs are stressed - there have been plenty studies to show that certain body launguages are associated with stressed dogs - simple blood work, heart rate and breating rates can tell us the stress levels in the dogs

Although I am surprised that so many dog owners cannot read the dogs on the show well enough to see the signs they are giving out - fear, avoidance, stress and then giving up and shutting down
at least the people on here who are not seeing it have not set themselves up as dog experts - I believe it is terrible that someone as prom as CM has no ability to read dogs

I dont believe he is ever the last chance - I believe when people say they have tried everything they really mean that they have tried everything that they know - and possibly chopping and changing methods expecting things to work instantly
I would be interested to hear of someone who had gone to CM after they had worked with a great positive trainer and it haddnt worked and left their dog more dangerous than before - because positive trainers as having to rehabilitate CM 'trained' dogs

As it is always asked what we would do different - and the Jindo case keeps coming up

If I was CM and that Jindo was brought to me because he was agressive when they tried to pin him on his back in the sitting room with the muzzle on

after finding out his medical history I would then find out what the dog really liked
In the garden I would then spend time bonding with the dog - not forcing it just wondering around and any time it paid any attention to me rewarding it for that

then I might teach it to relax on a matt once it was focused and trusting me

then over I would teach it that a muzzle was a fun thing by introducing it slowly and rewarding each step before the dog got stressed

then I would move the matt into the sitting room and teach the dog to be calm there

then I would teach the dog the trick of rolling onto its back

Sure it might take a little time - but at the end of the day the dog would have never been stressed, I wouldnt have been bitten or had to get into a fight with the dog, it would learn that all these things were nice and safe

whats wrong with doing it that way??

Yes it has been getting a bit heated here on both sides!

My comments are about CM and his training - I dont know of anyone here using his more OTT methods - I would stand up against someone who said they had strung their dog up or pinned down or whatever

I can disagree with other methods that people use - but without seeing them I cannot really say if they are cruel

I have to say tho from this weekend I have seen how harsh some people can be without thinking they are cruel - I have had words and some people in my club are going to be reporting people for harsh handling at agility comps - I really really hate to see a dog doing its v best and something goes wrong - usually cos of a handler error - and the dogs get yelled at or yanked about

also I saw far too many people with young dogs - when the dogs were being good they ignored them but when they barked it was 'psssssttt' and a big yank on the collars
It might not be abuse but it is v unfair on the pup - take it to a v exciting place, dont help it by knowing how you want it to behavie but tell it off when it does what is natural for it

Forgive me from intruding on this lively debate at this late stage and forgive me if the content has already being posted somewhere.
I can't really comment on whether CM is improving or not because I really can't watch his show without becoming angry.
Not to say that everything he believes or does is wrong but the way he works is not for me.
I would love to see the work that goes on behind the scenes to "Cure" the dogs on the show. I'm guessing it would not be pretty.
Here are some quotes from leading lights in the dog training world and their opinions on CM.

World-renowned dog trainers, behaviorists and veterinarians had all warned National Geographic that Millan’s methods had the potential for disaster. Below are quotes from noted experts:

“Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We’ve written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years.”
Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

“Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like ‘whispering’ for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable.”
Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA-Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers

"A number of qualified professionals have voiced concern for the welfare of pet dogs that experience the strong corrections administered by Mr. Millan. My concerns are based on his inappropriateness, inaccurate statements, and complete fabrications of explanations for dog behavior. His ideas, especially those about “dominance”, are completely disconnected from the sciences of ethology and animal learning, which are our best hope for understanding and training our dogs and meeting their behavioral needs. Many of the techniques he encourages the public to try are dangerous, and not good for dogs or our relationships with them ."
Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist
Co-owner of Animal Behavior Associates, Inc., Littleton, CO

"Cesar Millan employs outdated methods that are dangerous and inhumane. Using a choke chain and treadmill to treat fear of strangers and dogs is completely inappropriate. Hopefully the National Geographic Channel will listen to the scientific community and discontinue production of The Dog Whisperer."
Vyolet Michaels, CTC (Certified Dog Trainer and Behavior Counselor)
Owner of Urban Dawgs, LLC of Red Bank, NJ

"On his TV show, the main method Millan uses for aggression is aversives (leash jerks, kicks, snaps of the hand against the neck, and restraint, among others) applied non contingently. The aversives are non contingent because they are so frequent that they're not connected to any particular behavior on the part of the dog—the dog gets popped pretty much constantly. This results in a state called learned helplessness, which means the animal hunkers down and tries to do as little as possible. This is what Millan calls "calm submission." It's exactly the same thing you see in a rat in a Skinner box that is subjected to intermittent shocks it can do nothing to avoid. This can happen quite fast, by the way, shall we say in ten minutes? The dangers to the dog are obvious, ranging from chronic stress to exacerbating the aggression, i.e., some dogs fight back when attacked. This latter is the simplest reason that aversives are a bad idea in treating aggression. Even used technically correctly as positive punishment for specific behaviors like growling and snarling, aversives do nothing to change the underlying fear or hostility, so the best you can hope for, in the words of famed vet and behaviorist, Ian Dunbar, is "removing the ticker from the time bomb." Thus such methods substantially increase the risk to humans of getting bitten."
Janis Bradley, Instructor at The San Franciso SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
Author of the book, "Dogs Bite"

Excerpt of letter from Lisa Laney, Dip. DTBC, CPDT, CBC to National Geographic before airing “The Dog Whisperer”:
“The intended program depicts aversive and abusive training methods - treatment for some serious anxiety and fear based issues - being administered by an individual with no formal education whatsoever in canine behavioral sciences. The "results" that are shown are more than likely not long lasting changes, but the result of learned helplessness, or fatigue, neither of which impact behavior to any significant long term degree - at least not in a good way. For those of us who are pioneering the effort to end the ignorance that drives the cruel treatment administered upon our canine companions, it is disappointing to see that this programming will reach the masses - especially on the NG Channel. The ignorance that this program perpetuates will give equally ignorant people the green light to subject their dogs to abuse. In turn these dogs will react even more defensively, will bite more people - and end up dead.”