when I say "pull" Shona, I mean the owner being pulled on the lead by the dog. Mals can be notorious for doing this. I didn't mean to say that the owner pulls the dog !

Hal used to pull like an express train, and the more resistance you put on the lead, the more he pulled. When I learned from Cesar to walk him with a loose lead, controlling him with my voice, he stopped pulling.

That's what I meant to say !

Gnasher - do you mean this dog??
http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...ideos/03208_09
That clip has been discussed before on here - I cant find the longer clip
But from memory the basic run of it was

That dog had been rescued - from the cuts on its neck its thought it had been abused prob with a choke collar

The guy rescues dogs to move them onto other homes

They had totaly NO problems with the dog in any way whatsoever except when he decided to try alpha rolling the dog in the sitting room - so they called CM in

The dog was timid and unsure of CM to start with - CM even comments on how the dog is fearful
THe dog was v tense in the house and not liking CM prodding him about on the slippy floor - was telling him that in his best doggy BL

THen the owner added the muzzle - which the dog obviously had a bad association with
Not only was it being manhandled by a totaly stranger now it knew something bad was happening cos the owner always put the muzzle on before trying to force it to submit

BUt of course CM contined to push the dog when it was in a reactive state and unable to learn anything much at all
The fight went on until the dogs air supply was cut off

That clip made me cry, that poor abused dog was doing its best to communicate with people but they were just not listning
There was no reason to want to have to pin the dog anyway - the guy just wanted to to prove that he had the power over the dog - but if you did want the dog to roll on its back why not teach it as a fan trick rather than make it a battle

Nothing to be impressed with there


Shona - cant wait to see your trick! clicker training is so much fun - have just trained Ben to cross his front paws - then realised it was not a v matcho trick for my pretty boy

Gnasher - have you ever had a collie??
Any problems you think you have seen with a wolfy type are nothing compaired to a badly trained hard headed teenage collie
People just think of them as little robots walking lovely to heel
Sure they are smart - that means if they dont want to work with you you are in trouble
- why do you think there are so many young collies in rescue and that dogs trust has a special section for you to read if you are thinking of getting a collie
infact they wouldnt let me rescue one as I was to inexperienced

Sorry totaly OT but it gets my goat that people think collies are easy to train - quick and smart dosent mean easy

TBH I pretty much like CM, but that clip did make me uncomfortable.

However, I also think the owner was a total numpty for trying to roll a dog without any professional advice, just for the sake of it.

Seriously Gnasher, I can't believe you think what CM did to that Jindo was ok at all.

The dog was doing nothing wrong. Why should CM decide to roll him?

That whole clip was horrendous and that dog was NOT calm and relaxed, even I can see that.

Seriously disgusted that anyone can defend what was in that clip.

as I have said before, Im not totaly against him, he has his place,

the diff between you and gnasher though is.............

you are not so single minded, you dont see his way as the only way, you will look at all methods and see they have a place.

Absolutely Shona, I agree with this, but its horses for courses. I have to say the only one I have ever had a good level of success with is Cesar's Way, the only method that works for ME.

Now, this may well be my fault, but who cares? Cesar's methods work for me and my dogs, that's what's important. I have a dog who is very well balanced, well behaved, reasonably obedient and a joy to own and know.