I can't help thinking though, by the very wording you chose, you already have strong feelings in this particular area. I could just have easily have written "Would any of you have encouragingly walked your naturally anxious dog, and placed him into a safe area for it to relax, stress-free, in readiness for it to learn to be a dog again?" See, an entirely different slant, and what I saw on the screen, but clearly we both have very different views on what is acceptable and what is not.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't need any of these programmes on TV at all. However, clearly it isn't a perfect world. I can, however, hand on heart say that I didn't see anything on there that I could deem as unacceptably stressful.

I think we are often guilty of forgetting how resilient and adaptable dogs are. Though I doubt, for a moment, that they have. Look at what they've accomplished over the years. From wandering the plains to being guaranteed regular meals, roof over their head, and all the attention they could ever want. You don't get to that level of success by being a dumb animal that runs at every new sensation.

I have to say though, I can`t comprehend how they, [ the trainers ], can consider it acceptable to punish a dog by taking him or her out of the home and surroundings they are used to, with their family, then shove them in a cold dark kennel block along with other stressy dogs near by which must make them feel totally abandoned, lost and some possibly very frightened by it all.

No doubt they feel that such separation will make the dogs feel so relieved to see their owners each morning that they would do somersaults to please them but at the end of that day, no matter how hard the dogs may try, their `reward` is to be shoved in the kennel again.

I would not accept that its beneficial to the dogs` to cause distress to their peace of mind, and such stress or anxiety is not beneficial toward long term learning processes. A dog learning through desperation and feeling punished is not going to create harmony at home, particularly in more sensitive dogs which may worry that putting a foot wrong means the isolation block will happen again.
That, to me, causes as much inner fear as a dog worrying that they will be hit again for not doing a `sit` [ or whatever ], fast enough for a physically abusive owner or trainer.

If the owner has ruined a dog and turned him or her in to what might be termed a `spoiled brat`, punish the owner by all means, but don`t punish the dog for the humans mistakes. That just shifts the blame where it does not deserve to lay and the more `spoiled` the dog, the more abusive such an unnecessarily harsh a punishment that sort of kenneling is to the dog, imo.

Before you think I`m only saying this because its in response to you GSDLover, I tried to give you rep points for a really good post to earlier but it would`nt let me, it said I have to spread some around before I can give you more so its absolutely nothing personal re the above !
I absolutely do agree with you on some things but not others, and I worry that you might take it the wrong way as we dont agree on everything, so please don`t feel I`m having a go at you, I`m not at all :smt058
Its the dominance ethos some on the program use which I don`t agree with.

I think that we are often guilty of forgetting that dogs are sentient animals and that high levels of stress are a hinderance to learning as is fear.

Even in an imperfect world, we do not need programmes like these that put up the briefest of 'do not try this at home' messages. Sorry, but they really do not work as the owner of an adolescent Weimerana quickly found when one of the techniques shown on the previous series on the same breed of dog led her dog to bite!

Distinctions all round on the tests shown at the end of this show really were a joke. However, this is the first programme I've personally seen that has show some improvement in a participating dog when screening the follow-up home visit, ie the Chi. As previously said, I would love to be able to ask the owner how she changed the training and adapted the relationship advice because I'll betcha she did :smt002

Firstly, let's get that issue out of the way. Having read a few of your posts myself, I don't feel anything you say is personal in the least.

Now... I'll try to answer your post as I see things.

This is one area where we clearly have differing views. I am very much of the "allow a dog to be a dog" mindset, or at least how I interpret allowing a dog to be a dog.

To me, being at the beck and call of the owner day in, day out, twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, is a stress inducer in itself. In fact, I'd go so far as to say, that my own experience of dogs tells me that it might well be the placing of the dogs into the kennels that is the most beneficial in Dog Borstal, but perhaps not for the same reason(s) you state.

Again, purely from my own experience, I have seen the lowering of stress bought about in a dog when the expectations are lowered. Now anyone could argue (and rightly so, in some cases) that these expectations can be lowered without needing to segregate the dog(s).

However, WMDs are routinely segregated and have been for many years now. They are, at least those I've experienced, some of the happiest dogs I've seen.

To me, the separation creates more benefits that it does negatives. The key is, in my view, the quality of the time spent when the dog is not segregated. If the dog is kennelled, and then there is no real fun and exercise during the times when it's not, then that is cruelty. However, if the dog is given plenty of mental and physical stimulation, I believe it's almost the perfect setting to raise a dog in. Yes, I really did say that.


Again, we get to the nebulous opinion of what is and what isn't stressful though. I know that I personally differ from many dog owners by actually encouraging my dog into situations that it finds stressful. Such as our current "firework" conditioning. I walk it around busy town-centres, anywhere I know there will be loud noises, and so forth. I want a strong and confident dog, and sure enough, through regular exposure to various scenarios, that is precisely what I'm getting. You'll have to take my word for it, that she's not in the least bit unhappy, at least not that I can read. She's bouncy, she's eager, and seems to absolutely love learning new things each day.

I personally see that as a major responsibility of owning a dog -- respecting it as the capable and confident creature that it is.

I have to say that I've never seen the kennels used as a punishment in Dog Borstal. So I see no reason why a dog would even begin to think in such a way. Again, I think we're often a little guilty of displacing our own thoughts and imaginations onto dogs.

Again, maybe I just don't know dogs at all, but I've never looked at a dog On Dog Borstal and thought it was acting out of fear. Most of the time, it seems to me that it's happy to be doing something new, and often, more dog like. (In particular getting some much needed leadership at last!).

There have been dogs that seem quite nervous and hesitant, but then there are always going to be dogs like that. That doesn't, or shouldn't, make them any less capable of learning.

You'd get no complaints from me at punishing the poor owners, I can assure you. However, that wouldn't help the dogs much. You see it as punishing the dog, I see it as training, and that, I fear, is something that we may always disagree on.

If we have the dog's best interests at heart, does that matter? If, through attending Dog Borstal, the owner has gone from being someone who has little or no control/discipline, to someone who takes an active interest, enough to ask and get different methods for training/disciplining the dog, then it's a win-win situation for all as far as I can see.

I see where you are coming from, but does the end always justfy the means when there are other, less stressful ways to reach that end?

But again, it comes back to that question of how much is too much? I truly don't believe it's a question that can be answered, as each dog is different in its mental make-up. What I can get away with my current dog, Blondi, for example, I'd never have been able to get away with, with my previous GSD, Chess.

Truly, I appreciate that I probably do come across as quite stark and authoritarian in my training beliefs, but I dare wager that I'm as against cruelty as I think most others are.

I just happen to believe that we are, generally speaking, in much greater danger of ruining our dogs through trying to displace human feelings/emotions/thoughts/desires/needs/wants/ etc. onto them than we ever will be by expecting too much of them in training.

What is interesting, to me anyway, is that you feel the way you do about the trainers, yet I feel equal vitriol towards the people who 'abuse' their dogs by carrying them everywhere, doing this for them, doing that for them. That, to me, is extremely cruel. It's taking the right from the dog to be a dog. I personally find that infuriating and really quite sad to see.

I'm not generally one for emotion, but to see a Chihuahua that didn't even have the intelligence left to work out how to knock a cup over to get food? Come on. That's beyond cruelty to me.

Will look forward to it Wys - please Pm me when you post it in case I miss it!

It sounded as though Mick had more of an issue with the owner than the dog itself - sometimes some people just can't get on I guess.


I did pick up that the dog was looking scared, even in the footage at home I think the dog showed signs of fear a few times. Maybe part of this was because it had been 'protected'/cocooned by its owner for so long? I don't think it had the socialisation it needed when being brought up.

This one did worry me (it was definately 'frightened' in the exam/test) however, when they revisted them after the show it seemed much happier/calmer. So maybe the fear was there because of the alien surroundings in the exam? But ultimately the dog benefited in the end - even if it had to go through a stressful time?

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With regards to locking the dogs up - I think it is basic pyschology - the dogs are worried when taken away from their owners for the first time so it's natural they will be 'glad' to see them, and perhaps a bit more appreciative/attentative because of it as well?

Although I think the program is more entertainment than education, I am glad it actually helps the dogs in the long run, and at the same time highlights stupid owners. I've said to myself many times, did they think before getting that kind of dog, or even before getting a dog at all? It's really annoying to see that they don't even know the basics.

I wish we could get them to read our quick start guides as their first port of call!

http://www.dogsey.com/dogs.htm

I must say I am confused by saying people felt the dog look scared - this is (sorry was) a dog that had been mollycoddled by its owner, was a child subsitute, and was attacking things way out of its own league. The dog clearly had no fear of trying to bite other dogs and people because it had been allowed to do that. Robs sessions were really about teaching the owner, how to teach the dog to be a dog.

I was more concerned with the fact that this seemed to be the owners first port of call. Our Pug is not aggressive, and our problems were purely down to us. However, if she had shown signs of aggresiveness, it would have been straight to some training classes to learn how to stop her doing it. Imagine of borstal wasnt around, or she didnt get on the show. Would she have had the vision to seek help herself - based on her reaction to Mic, im not so sure.

With regards to the 'cold dark kennel block'. Its heated, and it has lights. The dog has bedding, and when its time for sleep, well they do what we do, and turn the lights off. Its important to remember, i feel, that the issues with each dog is often down to the way the owner treated them, and this is just one way to teach the owners that actually yes the dog doesnt have to sleep on your bed, and that they are perfectly capable of doing what dogs do.

And totally agree with the comments about the distinctions being handed out. The guyshowed difficulty controlling the great dane on a plain walk. It was only when the agility tasks were introduced that the dane was able to keep her mind focussed on other things. How often will a park have an agility course to help you stop your dog going for others? Yes he made progress, and yes her deserved to pass, but a distinction was maybe a bit over the top.

If you watch in a couple of weeks you will probably see me, my girlfriend, and mic being quite vocal about this topic because as you can guess, we didnt get a distinction - guess thats the risk you run when you have a judge who went up against lynn for the trainer position on the show, and failed. But we know we did well, we know we progressed, and we know how to take things forward

I thought it might be helpful to show an email reply I received from Rob, one of the trainers on Dog Borstal, this morning.

I actually asked one question, and gave one comment. My comment being that if the show were more about the dogs, surely it would be better to ensure that the owners got a better night's sleep, so that they were more relaxed, enthused, and energised for what what lay ahead of them the next day.

My question was, as it's never been made clear on the programme itself, just how much of each day is spent training.

So, as you can see, I think, there is more goes on than the cameras reveal, and I suspected as much. Though it's nice to have it clarified.

I shall now invite Rob to view this thread for himself. I find him to be a very open character who I'm sure will read the comments made, with interest.