Not suggesting you would and I apologise if you thought this a personal remark aimed at you. I am sure he has helped many people and their dogs but I am refering to some cases that I have seen on TV where he has come close to asphyxiating a dog. This is not meant to be a CM discussion and I believe that someone else has linked to that thread.

I also agree that non treat based reward is ideal but I have found that with some animals it is not enough. I cant imagine my wolfdogs going anywhere near a stranger though- pork scratchings or not!

I hope you get well soon.

Excellent, that would be great, good luck

If you are worried, would you consider seeing an APBC behaviourist? as they would assess her and give you a programme to follow to help resolve the behaviour. It's always useful to have someone do a consultation in the actual home with lots of info, etc

Wys
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Gnasher I hope you are not too ill, take care of yourself!

I use food for training a lot (as well as toys) because it's easy for other owners to use and handle (I'm a dog trainer and help with behavioural problems also). It's used in many pet dog training classes to help motivate the dogs and as far as I know most of the top obedience people will use them. We mostly work on what the dog finds rewarding and most dogs don't find praise that rewarding unless they see it as a signal perhaps of avoiding punishment, then they are very happy to have it.

I didn't used to use food previously with other dogs but now I do I would continue the same way As one can also lure and then reward with food, it avoids having to get into the scenario where the small lady with the great dane has to push her dog into the Sit and that sort of thing.

Once a command is trained, food is not continually used, but given occasionally as a surprise

My dog doesn't pester for food but some dogs will if given it for no reason or if, yes, somebody offers it to them in a pub or on a walk! My pet hate!

The rule is that mostly the dog earns the food rewards and knows that's when it gets them.

Wys
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Treat training is the same as any other reward based training system. You have to use an appropriate reward to the situation and in 90% of dogs I work with Praise is not enough. When there are other dogs around or birds/cats etc to chase you need to up the ante. Food is a good way of doing this.

My dogs will pester me for food sometimes (but that is my fault for sometimes feeding them scrapes.) But there is NO way they would go to someone else. My dogs like to stay with me as I offer them better stuff than other people. Food/games etc.

I find you last statment interesting.....Do you work for your boss because he is your boss or becasue you get paid?
Why should a dog be different. All dogs need to work for something. Whether it is chasing a ball, tugging a rope, getting the sheep to run, or eating some food.

My dogs love fuss - they come on the bed, on my lap and I will sometimes sit with them and just fuss them. Consequently I devalue praise as a reward becasue they get it when they want. My dogs need to work for 'something' of value to them.

Have you ever looked up schedules of reinfocement? This is where people tend to fall down...they use a continous reward, which over time will loose value (think about the difference between a slot machine and a vending machine - one is addictive and one is not.).

Hope you feel better soon

I must be very lucky with my dogs then ! Actually, something I forgot to say about Hal is that treat training would have been an absolutely NO NO with him ! He wasn't in the least bit interested in food, or praise for that matter ! It was sex that tripped his trigger, but I don't think we should go down that route !!

It may be that my particular type of dog is particularly well suited for praise reward, rather than treat reward. I don't think so though - Tai is very food orientated, as already demonstrated, but he is more than happy with his praise as a reward. And if you are a true Pack leader, then this WILL be sufficient. Even Hal would not have been distracted by chasing rabbits once he had been called to heel (admittedly, only after his new training regieme aka CM - before, anything went with him, it was pot luck as to whether he would recall or not !)

I work for my boss for both reasons ! I couldn't work for anyone, however much I was paid, if I 1) didin't like the boss and 2) didn't like the work. Obviously, I couldn't work for no salary at all, but I am prepared to take a much lower salary for a nice boss and interesting work - the two are not mutually exclusive, I must have both. Third, comes working location and fourth money. I believe it to be so with our dogs - they primarily "work" for us because of their undying loyalty, not because we feed them. We all know of the hearbreaking stories of dogs being tortured both physically and mentally, and yet they will still lick the hand that beats them and with their dying breath defend the home of that hand. This is a direct inheritance from their wild wolf ancestors, the undying loyalty to Pack alpha male and female. Unless you happen to be a young male beta upstart from outside the pack, or rarely within ! Which is why we used to have young Hal staging his regular failed attempts !!

I'm not criticising your obvious great and devoted love you have for dogs, as I do too. I just think I see things with less rose tinted spectacles. I am not at all convinced by your argument that your dogs NEED these titbits. I think you would find they will be just as loyal, as devoted, and desirous to please with or without them ... they for sure would say "With With !!

I'm not entirely happy when Tai asks people in the pub for titbits. This has only happened very recently, and it is something I could stop immediately if I wished. Provided there are no other dogs in the pub, he is allowed to go round and say hello to everyone if he wants to, and I see no harm if the odd person slips him a sly crisp, even though I don't approve of such treats, one or two won't hurt him. What I won't have him doing is sitting there drooling at them, that is showing a distinct lack of manners as he would not dream of doing this to us, so thinks he can get away with this behaviour with some more gullible humans ! In future, when I am better and can go out once again, I will have to stop his ramblings I think until he has learned not to beg once more.

I'm not convinced about your analogy of slot machine/vending machine. I personally have always found that with whatever dog I have had, reinforcement works, and when something works, I continue to use it, and it continues to work. Maybe I have just been lucky?

Thanks for your kind wishes Wys. I have had a migraine since Sunday night, and have taken virtually every painkiller, including really strong prescription painkillers, that I could find in my cupboard, to very little avail. However, I woke up this morning just with a mild headache, so that was a great relief. I have taken a couple of Neurofen only, and although very weak and shaky through lack of food, am well on the way to recovery and hope to take Tai out for a walk tonight !!

And I've LOST A KILO AND A HALF IN WEIGHT !! Yipee !! Only 10 kilos to go

Hiya ! Glad you're still talking to me !!

My wolfdog Hal would not have gone to a stranger even for pork scratchings (his favourite). In fact, I can't recall him taking food from strangers at all, whatever it was. He really wasn't into food at all anyway, very hardly ate all his dinner. So treat based training was out with him, even using baked pieces of raw liver, he just was not interested, when he was out and about he was hunting ... either for bitches first, or prey second !!

Oh I have migranes so I feel your pain, the fact that you have been able to (or wanted to) type anything at all is just amazin, you must have felt rotton
But I guess there is a plus side if you lost the weight , a few years ago I lost over 1/2 a stone in a bout of food poisining, and it actualy motivated me to keep on loosing.

As for the treats
as the others have kinda said
Its more about the level of reward
For me all sorts of things are rewarding for my dog, a smile, a pat on the head, a game, opeining the door, walking, and different types of food.
Sometimes a smile is enough, but sometimes I want to let them know I think they have been extra good so they get more - mibby a pat on the head
My dog very much works for works sake but if sometimes he gets a surprise bit of roast chicken then that is a really good reward and his little brain gets working to figure out how and why he got that

But he can run a whole agility circuit, ignore all the other dogs, people, toys and food and only want his praise from me and a tiny titbit
He can ignore raw meat dropped infront of his nose if I tell him too - and be happy with a bit of kibble as a reward

My dogs learn early on that bugging me for food dosent work - they only get titbits if they are doing what I tell them to do - or if they are away chilling out and not pestering me

It totaly bugs me on walks if my dogs go to say hello to someone that person automaticaly gives them a treat or says they are sorry they dont have a treat.
Initaly the dogs are just going to say hello, people are teaching them to expect treats
Thankfully around here everyone is at least happy to ask the dogs to sit nicely for treats, they used to feed them when they jumped up!!

Everyone already feeds their dogs, why not ask them to do a little something for their food??

Forgot to say, my Ben was neither food or toy motivated - and when I 1st got him he was scared of contact with people - even stroking scared him
I have had to train him to like people, food and toys and then to find them rewarding

Wolfdog : I think it was you who made an interesting remark about wolf crosses not responding to so-called "alpha" techniques like rolling? And that no wolfdog owners or trainers would use such methods?

They certainly do not ! With Hal, in particular, we had to be very careful about anything that smacked of physical abuse. OH took a bone off him once on the drive. It was dark, and time Hal came in. He just bent down to unclip the chain, and took hold of the bone and Hal growled. OH told him to drop it, went to take it again, and this time Hal snarled. OH lost his temper, and smacked him across the muzzle, not hard, but there is no way he should have done this. Hal rightly went for him, didn't bite him, but snapped and snarled, letting him know that no way was OH having the bone. OH took it anyway, with Hal snapping and snarling at his hand, threw the bone into the bushes and pinned him down. Hal continued the snarling, and it was going nowhere. By now, I had heard all this ruckus and came out to see what was going on. This was in the times before we had even heard of CM, so I didn't know about "alpha pinning", but I didn't like what OH told me had happened. I told him you should never have hit him, you should not have tried to take the bone off him like that. We took the dog inside, I retrieved the bone from the bushes and wrapped it up in newspaper and left it in the porch for the next day. Hal was unperturbed by the incident, and even came and said sorry to his master, which just goes to show what nice dogs wolf crosses are, even alpha males like Hal !

Pinning and rolling will not work with a wolf cross, neither does a more forceful type CM nudge. A gentle knee nudge on the shoulder is the most you could do. However, they do respond really positively to the calm assertive body language, the no touch, no talk no eye-contact stuff, the more "wolf" stuff if you like. But the Illusion collar, the forceful nudge, the rolling? No, I don't think so.

Great post Ben ! I absolutely agree about other people making the dog do something for his treat ! In the pub, I tell people to make Tai "Trust" or "Wait", and not let him eat until they say he can. Most people do this, but some just ignore you and feed him anyway, I think this is where the trouble started, but actually I blame myself because I allowed him to wander round in the first place, so it is my fault. I am going to have to stop it I think, at least for now.

Very occasionally, I will give Tai his chicken wings, or his dinner bowl, and he doesn't have to sit and wait, just to keep him on his toes really. It is a joy to see when he still does though, and looks enquiringly at me to see if it is OK for him to eat ! It is only when I feed him directly from my fingers will he take the food, which I like.

I still feel very sick, probably as a result of all the painkillers, so I am hoping to continue the weight loss. I should weigh about 64 kilos, which is 10 stone, and I'm a disgusting 76 as I type !! Mind you, at 5' 8" and very large frame, I'm pretty thin at 10 stone, so I'm being a bit hard on myself !