Nice clip, Ben. And the dogs were in the correct position, and looking happy.
Nice to see a trainer who knows what they are doing.

Very (very) short clip, but may I ask, does the little JRT have a problem in his rear legs/hips/lower spine? If not, does he always walk so stiff legged on the rear end?

Can't make my mind up if he is on high alert or whether there may be another reason for it. On the very brief run forward, his legs look better, more relaxed, but the brevity of the clip shows very little to be honest

Lead swinging is actually the cord on the camera.

Yes they walk wide and ahead, hence ''rough heeling'' as a title. I would get fed up of tripping over them if they walked close!

Jacca is a tryer, for sure, yes he loves the ball, but had rescource issue when first got so wasn't save to use it around the others.

When they stopped they were waiting to see if I was gonna ask for it back and through it again!

Adam

Adam

I have complinented your politeness in the face of abusive posts.
I always considered you were you own man with considered thought processes.

However, it was pointed out in the first video your JRT was displaying clear and substantial stress signs.

To which you had no explanation.

Then you come back to the thread after a bit of a gap and suddenly have this strange leap of logic.
And which, oddly, mirrors posts by LC.
So it does seem you realised that we were on to something, your dog was displaying stress at your e collar training, so instead of processing and examining that info, you have gone off in search of a token line to rebuff it.

I may be wrong, but sometimes fish smells like fish.

You take the line that the time the dog takes to get his treat is 'the suffering of stress'. And go on to say that is equal to the stress displayed by e collar training.

Now, if im excited and waiting for my dinner, true, it may raise my levels and be technically regarded as stress.
That relates to the sense of expectation, like santa at xmas.
But to say that is comparable to the stress i would receive from an electic shock and that i am 'suffering' is pushing the bounds of credibility somewhat.

It is a disingenuous argument.

However, let us assume your line is right and lets run with it.
You are saying that excitement over treats/toys masks the stress signs, which is why you see them on your e collar video but not in a treat training scenario (convenient get out clause their, btw ).

Then you own argument surely comes back to bite you?
If both experiences are unpleasant 'sufferings of stress' (my phrase) (btw, the implication is you are now admitting that the ecollar experience is an unpleasant suffering of stress), then if you scale it, surely the ecollar one is way worse?
As you say, the excitment (ie, positive joyous feelings associated with the expectation of getting food or play) is high enough to mask the stress signs the dog is really feeling.
Yet the ecollar one obviously cannot have a high enough level of joy/ pleasure/ excitement to motivate the dog to suppress his stress signs!
This means he cannot be overawed at the expectation of getting an electric zap!

Hence the irony of you own argument, which you are missing.

however, i am sure you can continue to find more round holes for these square pegs as well.

Maybe of you own accord

Just because something is masked doesn't mean its better, The pain of severe burns may mask the pain of a broken leg but the leg is still broken!

Your point seems to be that the excitment of food masking the stress makes food training somehow better? My thoughts are it makes it tricker to see what emotional state the dog is in and allows you to push the dog far beyond his comfort zone.

Adam

I watched that before. I am surprised you called that heeling? at best I would call it a focus exercise

From watching it I have a few points
Both your dogs are v stressed, in a way I dont see with people who use totaly reward based training
Jacca (I think he is) has such a worried face and is trying sooo hard bless his little heart, but he shows such worry that he is going to get things wrong
When he sits he curls up his paw as an appeasment at least twice
He only becomes animated when running far the ball, but he becomes fearful again once he has the ball
I would say he is also confused as to what you are wanting from him and he does not in any way associate the ball as a reward for the work, if he did he would be as animated doing the work. If properly reward trained then a dog sees the 'work' AS exciting (if not more) than the reward

as other people have said the collie is also lip licking and looking stressed, which for a collie, with a ball about is just not usual

So yes, when you say using rewards causes stress to dogs - in the case of your dogs it does, I would say it is becuase they are used to being punished for behaiving 'wrong' and find training stressful

check out this vid
http://www.youtube.com/user/yolle555#p/u/17/OtkTJ6ZvlH0
and see how unstressed the dogs are, doing heelwork to them IS rewarding and fun

Wouldnt you want them behind you though? as i presume you train your customers pullers the same way.

Why do you through the ball Forwards & not behind you, out of interest?

Just because something is masked doesn't mean its better, The pain of severe burns may mask the pain of a broken leg but the leg is still broken!

of course, you are right.
but this has nothing to do with what i posted in reply to your points.

Your point seems to be that the excitment of food masking the stress makes food training somehow better? My thoughts are it makes it tricker to see what emotional state the dog is in and allows you to push the dog far beyond his comfort zone.

Adam

Just because something is masked doesn't mean its better, The pain of severe burns may mask the pain of a broken leg but the leg is still broken!

nope, that is not my point at all.