AB breeding..

PLEASE READ FULL THREAD FROM THIS CROSS POST!
http://www.american-bulldog.co.uk/fo...topic.php?t=60

Then ask yourselfs, what makes a good AB breeder and what makes a bad one?

TAKEN FROM THE BOOK 'THE WORKING AMERICAN BULLDOG' BY DAVE PUTNAM.

"I call the best breeders- first tier.These are the folk that have the experience,knowledge and ethics to earn a title and go though scientific screening processes such as OFA,BVA,PENN-HIPP and CERF eye-testing.First tier breeders have kid-tested,dog-tested and stranger tested all breeding stock.Most use sires & dams that hold formal temperament titles such as the TT,CGC or OB 1,virtually guaranteeing that parent dogs have steady nervesand are trustworthy."

This First tier also put high level OB,working or sport titles on there dogs such as WST 1&2,BST 1&2,CD/UCD 1,2&3,WP/WPD titles, and AD. Then often go on to compete in Shutzhund or Ring sport.

"Then there are a host of AB breeders that BVA and screen there stock and also temperament test but don't have titles.This is the second tier-breeders that use only mentally and physically sound AB's but don't work then enough to earn titles.AB's from these kennels have lower drives than the first tier dogs and may therefore be a better choice for the average home owner"

"This gives puppy prospects two acceptable groups to chose from.There are more second tier than first tier breeders and this is a good thing.Cross-pollonation from the two groups will refresh bloodlines and keep the AB strong".

..........."Then there are the third tier breeders that do no scientific screening such as BVA" (or do it afterwards )
"Third tier breeders range from those who do randomly selected (genetically dangerous) backyard breedings to mass production puppy milling."

Tiers One & Two often breed freely between groups and work together for the betterment of the breed.
Tier three breeds for money,prestige and because the can.

CROSS POST TO AN INTERESTING AND GREAT POST ABOUT BREEDERS AND ETHICS.PLEASE READ FULLY.
[admin edit: link removed: no links allowed to the site that was posted]

LAST ONE PLEASE READ.[admin edit: link removed: no links allowed to the site that was posted]

People may see this as a personal attack at 1 breeder, Maybe so.
This is aimed at all people breeding working type dogs.THINK ABOUT IT. Thanks to people like you we have the DDA.
THE MORE DOGS BRED FOR PET HOMES THE MORE PEOPLE WILL BREED THEM.YOUR PUPPIES WILL BE BRED! WHO WILL BUY THEM??

10 years ago there was 20 or so AB's in the UK. Now the number is in the thousands ,as this number has grown so quickley it is obvious to me this breed will get into the wrong hands.
Already there are two AB rescues!

[admin edit: personal remarks removed: please keep these to private email]
Si.

THESE POST WHERE MOVED AND EDITED FOR SOME UNEXPLAINED REASON.

ORIGINALLY POSTED IN PUPPIES FOR SALE SECTION IN AB'S FOR SALE FROM STATESIDE KENNELS.

[admin edit: Please refer to above admin comments and PM's sent to you. Please also read the rules of this site.]

Posted by DanUK on 7/21/2004, 13:04:34, in reply to "Aghhhhhhhhh! Get out of my head!"
195.137.30.19
You both put it so well and imo so right.
IMO (and I'm not a breeder) it is possible to for a multitude of 'types' of dog ...but actually it is inevitable that any type of breeding will produce the whole range of possible eventualities.
With guardian breeds it takes careful breeding ...because the traits are hard to perpetuate at a high level from one generation to the next. This means seeking extreme representations pre-disposed to passing on these traits ...that may not be best suited to getting the highest scores in traditional sporting endeavours. This is the dog who is stable with family and friends, but maybe takes things a little too personally to dominate in sporting arena. It takes a qualified eye to discern such dogs from those that don't do well simply because they aren't actually that good.
Even then, breeding best to best, I do not believe that if one constantly strives to improve ...you will produce entire litters of top-echelon puppies, let alone whole litters of 'breeders'.
In a good breeding you might get 10-20% (maybe 1 or 2 only in real terms) at the top which can be used to strengthen the line ...maybe 40-50% that are possessed of varying degrees of working suitability ...and the remainder will be if lucky of a pet quality that should be placed in good, responsible homes and removed from breeding altogether. The key to all this however is and always will be the breeder ...and tbh there are too few suitable breeders out there ...fewer even than suitable breeding dogs.
When seeking out/identifying owners a big factor imo is finding owners willing to adapt to the breed because they love it not those (such as is prevelant in the Neo, OEB, BM etc. communities) wanting to adapt a breed to themselves. People wanting a breed for what it is are rare, but go the extra mile ...handle the unexpected better ...because it isn't so 'unexpected' ...they ask for help more regularly ...despite pride or ego ...and if the breeding produces higher drive pups for instance than they expected ...will generally take advice and show commitment to go the extra mile fully aware of what additional responsibilities they've incurred. And ...they generally have a more rewarding experience with their pup to boot imo
In other words, I really am not a believer in there being a need to deliberatley setout to breed 'pet dogs', it is just a need for careful and responsible breeding practice.
This way everyone is happy. If normal owners put their egos aside, they can get the best of both worlds, an impressive, healthy, loving companion that compared to any other sort of breeding will still have a very high percentage chance of if not actually protecting for real ...being sufficient to deter all but the most serious of threats ...yet be manageable in the day to day lives of your average family. Your working stock can be worked ...and maybe reveal a few diamonds in the rough ...whilst your foundation stock can be retained for their usefulness as a breeding tool for the line and ensure continued success.
It is my opinion that breeding stock for guardian programmes don't necessarilly represent 'the best dog' as viewed by most people, working or not ...they possess all the prerequisite characteristics and some in such abundence that it is simply too much for most applications outside of breeding.

I think there are 4 types of breeder that one need address in order to answer the question of how important Titles are to a breeder:

1)
The Romantic:

There are lots of takes on the ‘romantic’ equation. The people that have always used the dogs for their original intent …few and far between, e.g. Hog hunters.

Then you have the cynologists and those that truly love the breed often not because they chose it …more it chose them.

These people are those that respect the breeds origins. Han#### wrote some good quotes on the topic such as:

“Once breeders either ignore their breeds origin or get misled by false research (or ignorant translators!), then essential breed type is threatened”

“When a type of dog loses its historic role, then the future of that breed is threatened. That is how we in Britain nearly lost all our ‘Heelers’, our remaining Wolfhound and did lose our decoy dog. The Setting dog however, adapted from the net to the gun, and thrived, the Bulldog sadly never found a role once bull baiting was banned in 1835 and is less healthy, less virile and less agile as a consequence. Breeders of Mastiff breeds MUST produce dogs that are capable of carrying out their historic roles, even if they are not required to do so. The breed history gave us the breed; the breed history must be our guide in perpetuating the breed. What alternative path can we (logically) follow”

“Moral judgements made today on hunting cannot diminish the remarkable physical and mental qualities of dogs expected to fulfil a function. We should respect the heritage of the mastiff breeds and then honour it by breeding healthy, virile, physically powerful but mentally stable dogs, for that is their historic mould ”
I think these quotes essentially say it all in this context. The Romantic is the person that loves the breed for its essence not its looks, that has respect and openness for their breed, its history and role in civilisation, rather than how many rosettes it puts on their mantle in efforts toward personal glory. They are the people that make concessions in their lives to the breed rather than have the breed make concessions to suit their life or fancy. These are the people that work their dogs because it is right in regard to the breed purpose and for the breed betterment …I love Dogoman’s quote to conclude this point and if you know of his dogs, you will know it is not at all ironic to put a quote of his under this heading, it encapsulates the point most succinctly:

“We believe in breeding for improvement; anything less is not selection, but just reproduction ”


2)
The Professional:

The professional doesn’t have to be someone that earns money in breeding or training dogs, it is as much a state of mind. The professionals in dogs stand out in the same way as ‘the Germans’ manufacturers stand out in automotive industry. We ‘normal’ people can stand awe-struck at the beauty of a fine German Shepherd (in keeping the theme) just as many of us would in view of a fine Porsche. But the professional will say how it is a pleasing vehicle but the engine needs more torque, or the tracking in the suspension isn’t “quite right” to get the very best from the car. Same is true in dogs. The professional has a reputation and a pride in that reputation, sometimes through ego, mostly through honourable intentions …it’s the only way to sustain the required commitment.

To state another Dogoman quote:

“ If form follows function, then one must understand the function in order to fully understand the form. I hunt wild boar in the traditional Argentine manner, with Dogos and knife. Most of what I have learned while hunting with Dogos cannot be learned from books or from the Internet. You need to see the Dogo working, if you are to understand the reason for its very existence. A Dogo that looks great in a show ring might lack nose, drive, speed, strength, endurance, courage or HEART...crucial things which you see in just a few minutes, when you see him scenting, tracking, running down and catching a 300-lbs boar. Hunting helps to understand WHY the Dogo is made as it is, in body and in mind ... because you can see it in practice. It’s “the real deal” that cannot be learned thru others; it must be experienced, it must be LIVED. ”

And yes …this quote could also go well in the preceding section too J

A Professional knows there are bad, average, good and great dogs. They also know there’s not as much as some would have you believe between the four. For this reason they seek out the empirical evidence necessary to enable their decisions to be ‘professionally-based’ only allowing “their heart” the casting vote in the most exceptional of circumstances. They know ‘Science’ makes the decisions easier not harder.

Trials and working events are imperative to such professionals …their bread and butter. Just as a car aficionado knows where to go for a good car, the true professional dog need no not invest in publicity for the discerning dog people come to them …and their trial results provide credence lending their customers peace of mind.

Professionals also know well that good dogs are where you find them, but great dogs are few and far between. A good dog can excel on the field …in the home …in the heart …but that doesn’t make it great. Only time makes a dog great. What differentiates the great from the good expounds beyond the individual, but in its ability to display a pre-potency and synergy that allows its progeny to also excel over time …to exceed that from which they are drawn. A professional dog person knows this and sits silently when others expound the virtues of other people’s dogs …the professional knows better. They know that when a good dog fails to display these qualities in its progeny, that it should no longer be bred, and that when they find a dog which does exhibit these qualities …that they should embrace it wholeheartedly …but with strong duty of care. The professional knows that in this manner a piece of paper doesn’t lie, that it has worth. They know from their efforts that the ‘Newspaper pup’ may be a good’un …but likely not great, for it lacks that key ingredient …the professional’s supporting evidence.

The professional is often about slow and steady winning the race …their consistency and empirical approach sees the weather the storms to stand the test of time.

The Legal/Social:

You will find both of the aforementioned parties fit neatly into this group to, as well as the ‘good’ pet breeders. In today’s society it is often observed how we have “no need” for bull baiting or fighting dogs …or even most other types of functionally derived dogs if truth be told. We need dogs that “fit in” to society in general we are told.

Everyone has varying views as to how true they hold this to be …but everyone also tends to agree …that they don’t like getting ‘scr*w*d’ either.

Whether you view dogs as property or beings is irrespective in this instance because legally and socially the arguments are the same.

As a breeder one has duty of care to contend with …a duty to ensure what they produce is fit for purpose and socially acceptable at the minimalist level.

No matter if you breed Bichon Fries or Bulldogs this applies. You need to breed dogs that don’t die of health defects …or suffer miserable lives demanding prolonged, expensive medical treatment. You need to breed dogs with sound temperament nerve that are predictable in hands of suitable owners …dogs that don’t end up on the news …in court …or with Mummy and Daddy having to come home and explain to their children why puppy is never coming home again …and why it bit for no reason when kiddies thought it was ‘their friend’.

Breeders must be accountable. This means minimal efforts should extend toward CGC’s, TT’s and comprehensive health screening for all common and breed-specific health checks. It means breeding at a mature age …and not on every heat cycle.

The dogs of breeders need be the best of the best, need set an example …need to improve rather than reproduce …to re-hash a previous point. Would you expect a Law enforcement officer to step into court to defend his dog …and it have OB that is not even half of the old lady’s pug down the street? …No, positions of authority need be accountable.

When/If laws for animals are brought in to line …when ‘the consumer’ is empowered …woe be the breeder that is not socially be accountable.

4)
The BYB and Co.:

This is the easiest …that’s why I left it ‘til last. Simply put …these are the people who think that all 3 of the other groups are mad …and that such ‘principles’ are for morons. They care for dollars, for glory …have no respect for others and would actually rather the aforementioned points were not raised ...especially about legal rights!

Rules are OK for “others” …and if they need titles, no matter …these are the sorts who will invent their own …and preside as judge and jury but seldom executioner if money is their to be made (Hey, we still have the option of muzzle laws right?).
IP: 195.137.30.19
Posted on July 20, 2004 at 04:47:13 PM by DanUK


1) No I don’t own a Porsche …no way …even if I could afford one …where’d the dogs go in that thing?

2) The ‘true romantic’ imo will be the most inclined to breed for perfection …at least in their own mind’s eye. They will breed only best to best and will more often than not use all manner of tests to prove the best to them.

3) That’s not to say a professional won’t …but that you can be professional in breeding for many purposes: working, pet etc. A professional need not have the historic heart of the romantic, what was is no matter, what is in regard to what is required is key. A professional can have two dogs and recognise both as breed worthy for their purpose.

For instance, they can have two siblings and recognise one as a true foundation stud …most worthy of them all to a breeder, but too much for most others. They will breed this dog and rely heavily on its progeny for themselves and the perpetuation of the line. This is the dog with the extremes in traits and the pre-potency to throw said traits in spades. This is the dog you’d take into the Alley to fight King Kong …and expect to win!

The other dog …to the romantic is a good dog …but not the calibre of its sibling so not breed worthy. A most honourable decision. However, the professional will test it rationally and find in actuality that it is not wanting, simply ‘out-shined’ by its more significant brethren. This dog is actually more suitable for service being more handler-friendly yet still up to all tasks …it might not beat King Kong …but all said and done, would go down trying in a way that would make the hardest of hard shed a tear. This dog needs careful matching, but the Professional knows to whom ...because they are that professional. They also know that what needs be done, need be done when the pups come, neither time nor room can be allotted to sentimentality.

4) My preference. In case some body asks? Well, of the types of breeder, a nice balance of the romantic / professional are desired …and no doubt they will indubitably be found to be both legally and socially minded as a matter of course.

Tests are nice …indeed the simplest to me are the most important. Is the dog healthy? Is the dog stable? What of its parents and grandparents?

I’d rather have a stable dog than a top scoring dog. The dog whose parents both passed their CGC with honours, are great with kids and non-threatening people. The same dog that fails to get top scores in competition …because it takes things a ‘little too personally’ when it comes to threats to itself or its family.

I like a Jack of all trades, Master of none …but either way, my dog need be good enough to get ‘the job’ done

"Most people undertake such projects for the love of it, not the money or the glory. Simply put, most don't care if other people (in general) do or don't know their dogs and many of these guys and gals produce too few litters to have excess pups once they have met their own, friends and associates requirements.

The majority of the time you will see 'so-called' bandog breeder sites it is quite apparent they are BYB's / Puppy-millers/Rank-Amateurs.

Some questions to ask yourself when viewing a(ny) site:

Cons
* There is an overly 'overt' mention of cost/money? - Possible Cause for concern
* Breeder seems to attribute their own 'tag' to "their breed" in efforts to establish credability/rarity value/profit from others (by name etc.)
* The site implies a lot of breedings are going on / constant stream of pups is being produced - Major Worry!
* The site presents (often) overly romanticised histories, esp' in association to fighting and blood sports that really are of no relevance to a 'guardian' dog in modernity.
* Is there reference to activities that are out of step with the 'stated goal' ...e.g. reference to, or obsession with 'fighting' dogs in a program intended to create 'guardian' dogs? - Major Worry!
* Breeder also appears to be consistently selecting dogs that do not correspond to the breeders proposed role.
* Breeder does not indepently 'validate' its stock now (i.e. uses its own tests, BST, titles etc.) and has no history either in service or sport to support the breeder's experience/competence to judge. - Worry
* The site uses terminology and other references to negatively impact the public perception's of the breed they are selling - Major Worry!
* The site makes unsupported claims of natural protectiveness, man-stopping ability and does not mention the need for responsible ownership, training and experience - Another Worry!
* Breeder offers no public nor private affirmations / proof of breeding stock health
* Breeder's site / history is known to or clearly demonstrates unethical practices: e.g. breeding immature females/males, repeatedly breeding females on each heat cycle, breeding the same male/female to multiple, differing dogs with seemingly no obvious or clear rationale, breeding females more than the advised number of times by KC guidelines/SPCA rules - all bad signs!
* Breeder seems to produce multiple first-generation crosses without progressing, and without keeping the majority of the progeny for their programme - Sign of milling rather than activity to 'establish' a line
* Pups do not appear to be particularly healthy or vigorous, do not appear to be well socialised (e.g. all pics are in the whelping pen even when the pups are old enough to be 'about')
* Breeder seems to constantly have a number of mature 'picks' of litters available ...or all pups are touted as 'pick of the litter'
* Breeder can be found to be advertising in dubious means beside their site, e.g. in national publications associated as 'puppy peddler publications' ...or is forced to try and advertise on sites that aren't even relevant to their breed. "

Pros
+ The site offers up a rationale behind the programme, definitive goals and objectives both long/short-term
+ Suitable guarentee's are presented as pertains to health/temp and replacements
+ Spay/Neuter contracts are required
+ A Breeding Rights / Contract is required (Many Good bandog breeders will retain rights to their stock either for use in their programme, or just for approval before bred)? - Plus
+ Performance measure(s) are demonstrated to denote breed-worthy status. Preferably there multiple measures coinciding directly with the stated goals and tested/validated independently
+ Breeder has multiple generations, producing a fairly consistent type and if possible to ascertain, temperament? ...or is their variation and signs of 'scatter breeding'?
+ Breeder offers parents for inspection, preferably other relatives also and if not photographic evidence to illustrate a prospective pup's lineage.
+ Breeder can cover the breeding's lineage stating the rationale behind it, relative strengths and weaknesses, synergies sought etc.
+ Breeder has CGC's/TT's and Health certification on their stock
+ Breeder has a known, long-standing and respected reputation?
+ Breeder has a proven track-record in Service (PD/Military/Customs etc.), private security or competitive sport (SCH/FR/KNPV/WT/IPDL/WT)
+ Breeder offers rebates or other 'accomplishment incentives' ...e.g. for Health, Temp and Working titles that act toward the betterment of the line (genetically/improving public perceptions)
+ Breeder generally demands home visits or interviews before placement?
+ Breeder seldom sells to the public / sells a small percentage of each litter and preferably has a genuine wiating list to obtain a puppy. - Huge plus!
+ Breeder provides support and feedback toward establishing the right dog for a customer and is quite willing to defer them to another breeder ...or another breed - Huge plus
+ Breeder will politely tell unsuitable customers that they need to gain more experience or whatever... and refuse a sale
+ Breeder will admit short-comings in their stock that they are seeking to improve ...after all no line is 100% perfect
+ Breeder will make prospective owners aware of potential issues such as genetic or other health issues etc.
+ Breeder will actually try to discourage / downplay the value of having a guardian breed and make people aware of the responsibility involved.
+ Breeder will demand first right to return rather than see their dogs submitted to a rescue organisation
+ Breeder will willingly allow their stock to be tested within reason and by qualified persons.


There's lots of others too, but that's a few things to look for that are particularly key to bandogge breeders.

Now, there are a few reputable breeders that have had sites, and some that still have sites of some description ...although many not for purposes of selling dogs at all.

Off top of my head, I can only think of two bandog breeders that have sites worth visiting, the main one being True Blue in Australia.

The other "top 5" breeders I personally know of no longer have sites, with 1 or possibly 2 more having plans to (re-)launch a site at a latter date."

I hope you attained permission from the orginal poster/s before cross-posting, otherwise they will be deleted.

Of course,dan said post it every where.Its a good article written by a genuine young dogman.

Have you read it?

Wot do you think of it?

Si.