Got to admit, I've only skim read some of the posts but can't remember seeing it being suggested that this dog should have been put to sleep. Can you direct me to the post(s) please??

Brierley
Got to admit, I've only skim read some of the posts but can't remember seeing it being suggested that this dog should have been put to sleep. Can you direct me to the post(s) please??

Denis
It does not matter what you can’t remember, this post was made by a pet owner for pet owners, the difference between the original poster and the regular pet owners is the fact my client has experience of both positive training and all round mixed drive stimulation training, which is what I use. For a list of those who would have this dog PTS refer to my link for 'The Magnificant 7' - you are one.

The full account of both methods is in the first post, and the recommendations from the pet owner,cth1013, are at the bottom of the post. Those recommendations are based on the results of both methods by a pet owner with both experiences and an obvious preference. Most pet owners who read it can clearly understand that.

Pet owners can also see what you cannot, that several posters on here would have literally (I speak as the personal trainer in this case) would have had that little dog killed by their dogmatic statements that this dog must continue the regime which had been taught to the pet owner, the question is also obvious, how many other dogs have been lost to this ‘trainer’?

So if you cannot see what would have happened by reading these pages then there is no point in your reading these pages, these sort of places are only of benefit to those who can see what’s going on, in your case you cannot see the points in this post.

You are a someone who calls themselves a positive trainer a member of APDT who has not declared their commercial interest APDT is a commercial co-operative the same as ‘The De-Lux Mini Cab Company’ - ‘Dyno-Rod’ or similar commercial bodies.

Your commercial interests are in conflict with the pet owner poster because APDT members signed the membership long BEFORE any modern e-collar was invented, in 1998, you did not only ban yourselves from using modern e-collars, you banned yourself from learning anything at all about them once they were invented, in 1998.

No APDT member knows anything at all about using e-collars, they banned themselves from learning anything about them before they even existed and left themselves with only one extremely confined training method, which amounts to treats, treats and more treats, with a self imposed ban they are hardley likey to tell fee paying clients "An e-collar would be good with your dog but I cannot use one".

Positive reinforcement of wanted behaviour and ignoring unwanted behaviour is an excellent method of training, however, there is nothing new about it, clickers are also very good for those who prefer them to voice which is why some e-collars are fitted with a clicker sound, many e-collar users use clickers as well but they are not new. We used them for tricks in the 1950’s and in those days circuses always used them with performing dogs, we called them crickets, they were in fact a toy and made of tin.

The limitations of simply using positive reinforcement for environmental safety and legal requirement obedience training (recalling the dog from chases in any situation which puts the dog at risk or just because you want a recall) is that it only works with very quiet dogs from puberty onwards, (7-8-9 months the changes start ) once puberty arrives if your dog is not a quiet type it will not respond to obedience commands if it has something better to do.

You can still use positive reinforcement for tricks or agility and things like that but for everyday obedience, running round the woods, chasing this or that you will soon find that a very obedient puppy which does everything you want starts doing exactly the opposite from around 7 months onwards, they are learning ignoring behaviours and if you do not change methods at that point or you are in for lifetime of problems.

APDT cannot use e-collars, they banned themselves before they were even invented so they have to say something to justify why APDT dogs which are not quiet ignore their owners and why those where a modern e-collar is used as a training aid is running round like hells bells but under perfect control with worry free owner.

Below, positive training 1950’s ( probably 1957). She was a fully trained farm bred working BC. I was the trainer throughout her life. I earned all my pocket money with her from when I was around 10 or 11, although I was probably 9 when I got her as my first dog.

Do I know all about positive reinforcement techniques, I can run rings round any so called positive trainer with it, maybe most important,I know its limitations, they only tell pet owners its new a sales gimmick, dont believe 'em, the copied us but in a very bungled amature way.

Trick training (sometimes with a cricket or a clicker as they call them these days.)
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/shots49/16.jpg

The child trained working dog.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/shots49/1b.jpg

Now, I have to run my dog before its to darn hot.
PSThey called me 'Little Elvis' then

And yet you still don't understand that a dog doesn't get an instant reward after using negative reinforcement, you weren't able to discuss that in the other thread on electric collars, So you avoided it

You seem to confuse positive training and what it is, as you seem to think that this owner CT... was using it on her Westie - er NO!! No positive training was used. So why you are linking it all to positive v electric collar beats me.

Used correctly positive training works excellently (defined: positive reinforcement, extinction, occasional negative punishment (ie toy removal) ). Some working trials people now use it to get to the top which is just one example of it working beautifully

My own dog is trained this way - she is very well trained indeed so I can say from experience (and past experience) it works!!! let alone all the owners I meet and help who also use it.

Yes dogs go through adolescence etc and this is where they may need consequences and owner commitment to training, but it can all be done with positive training if the knowledge is there.

Where it may go wrong is if there is lack of knowledge but that is not a fault of the method, it is more a problem of correct application.

Whether you like it or not plenty of APDT trainers have great success with it too, why you can't accept it I find strange although you can have your view -shame you have to badmouth others and set up stories etc though and encourage use of electric collars which used incorrectly (or even correctly IMO) can be tantamount to abuse.

Wysiwig
And yet you still don't understand that a dog doesn't get an instant reward after using negative reinforcement,

Denis
They do, but, it is a VERY high value to the dog reinforcer.

Wysiwig.
you weren't able to discuss that in the other thread on electric collars, So you avoided it

Denis
Have you read how many statement, questions etc are on these posts and the speed of posting, I dont have time for much than 1 or 2% replies, apart from that people need to learn thse things first hand.

I actualy show to everyone with my own dog before I accept them or they employ me because I can show more and teach more in 10 mins than they will learn from a lifetime of reading, people who REALLY want to learn something go out and get experience.

Regards
Little Elvis,
London
UK.

Here we go again....
I really feel by continuing this we are merely giving Dennis what he wants, a vehicle for him to tell everyone how he can shock a dog and make it do as he wants within 10 minutes...great. (Being sarcastic with the great obviously before I am misquoted...again).
It's all starting again...we all get suckered in...'cos we care...that's what he wants, think it may be time to leave it guys!Ax

Very well said we are playing into his hands, seen it all before on other boards,

the best thing we can all do is put these posters on our ignore list (we know who they/he is!

Agree with Ailsa and Jackbox... time to call it a day with this thread...

And I, for one, will be editing my ignore list

Morning all,

I have only just caught this threat and have found it very interesting to read. Im not going to express my view on this topic but simply ask a couple of questions..... (devils advocate style lol)

1. How many people within this debate have actually touched/ felt the 'shock' of an electric shock collar?

2. How many people within this debate feel it is wrong to smack a child (on the back on the legs or bum) for misbehaviour?

Would just be interested in knowing the answers.......

to answer your questions
1) YES i have seen, touched and shocked myself with these collars (on a very low setting) and it hurts dont let anyone tell you different.

2) as for smacking a child on the back of the legs, no i have never done that, but i have smacked my children, on the backside when the where little(through there clothes)! but i would never zapp them with a E.collar you can not compere the 2, and this is about e.collars not children.

I think that maybe quite a few people have felt the stimulation at various levels from an e-collar. Anyone that aspires to the designation of 'trainer' will have explored most of the available training tools.

Comparing the use of such devices to smacking a child, who is cognizant, has the ability to reason, has the ability to look forward and back, has an understanding of language, is less driven by instinct and the imperative to act on instinct, looks beyond the here and now, would seem akin to comparing apples and pears?