i'm game for most things unless it involves pain! max is only game for eating or walking

In Irish Terriers, a game dog would be one plucky and spirited about getting it's work done - it's not intended to be about fighting and definately not aggression. Irish Terrier fanciers often describe a dog as being "game", to mean bold, brave, lively and a good hardy worker, what is what a terrier is meant to be. Up until I read other peoples comments on gameness, I didn't think there was anything wrong with the word but I can understand that describing dogs as game could be misconstrued as aggressive and up for a fight .

I suppose it's like Tom said, that gameness is an unflinching, fearless attitude, an Irish Terrier that ran away the first time it got bit on the nose by a rat, wouldn't be much use to a farmer . You get different types of gameness for different breeds depending on what they were breed to do.

Joanne as a Staffy owner thats my interpretation of the word game too ..

so it boils down to gameness is tenacity?(sp)

Mo

Mo, tenacity is certainly part of it . Here is the thesaurus entries for game :

bold, courageous, dauntless, desirous, disposed, dogged, eager, fearless, gallant, hardy, heroic, inclined, interested, intrepid, persevering, persistent, plucky, prepared, ready, resolute, spirited, spunky, unafraid, unflinching, valiant, valorous, willing.

The above is what I have always taken the word "game" to mean, and I actually like that in a dog. There is no mention of aggression or violence, something I certainly wouldn't want in any human or animal I brought into my home.

well I will go with what the dictionary says
that is a pretty good definition of gameness, and I think Olive had managed to sum it up pretty well

Pretty much what I'd have said. I'd say my Kali was "game", in that he's pretty much up for anything, be it play or punchup. He doesn't ever attack other dogs (he beats his brother up occasionally ), his approach is always "Hello, mate, let's play", but, on the other hand, if the strange dog starts something, Kali is ready to finish it. I've never let him fight, though!

Snorri-dog, however, is the epitomy of over-caution. Ready for a play, but equally ready to run away!

Snorri

I view gameness in terriers the same way I view the drive and determination of Border Collies, you know the gotta chase everything, sheep,cars etc. If job is to be done, these dogs will give it there all, call it whatever you want. What make the difference is how we channel that drive, gameness or spirited determination, so that we are able to live in harmony with these dogs as part of our families and society.

Wow, Snorri we were posting at the same time and I was thinking of your Borders, eerie of what

I think that is the theasaures entry is for game not gameness and certainly not written for dogs and pit fighting in mind.

This is a small extract from how dogs are tested for gameness. I agree with CBT that if a dogs growls or lunges then it is not game that is the frightening part these dogs fight in silence and with total and utter concentration on the job in hand. Killing the other dog.

In order to understand what happens in one of these contests one must first understand the origin of the dog and individuals who originally pit one dog against another. There is a lot of speculation on this issue but the overal consensus among 'professional' dog fighters is that it was a way to find out which dog was the toughest most game.

Throughout history, men have fought one another in caged contests, with gloves, without gloves, with rules, without rules, etc...the tough man was worshipped and to be emulated in the days when it was more accepted by society. So, how did they define tough/game?

One aspect of being tough was gameness. Two men would fight it out and if one of them quit the dual was over. Even if the man who quit was physically stronger he was not considered to be tougher. In other instances it was not only who was stronger physically but who was smarter and in yet others it was physical. So, we now have three components of a fight, physical, mental and gameness, or heart! The heart is that intangible men worshiped back then, the gameness to never quit until there was nothing left and even then to carry on to the death

These men also expected the same of their dogs. The dog that would quit in a fight was no longer kept for breeding. As a result there was an evolution that took place where the dogs would continue to fight even while taking a beating. Now, gameness is not sufficient when faced with a stronger and larger opponent so other things began to evolve such as strength of bite, agility, and various other things like fighting style, yes, style. As men learned more and more they began to selectively breed for one characteristic over another to the point that only game, athletic, hard biting winners were bred. These dogs tended to be small since they were typically matched in buildings, basements etc...most ranged from as little as 15 pounds all the way up to 45 or 50 pounds.

The reason for this was simple. It's easier to physically pick up a small dog in the heat of battle than a large one. So, what prevents the person who is handling the dog from being bitten? Well, that is part of the evolution.

First let's examine being in a 16 by 16 foot square pit trying to grab a dog that is the middle of a major battle. What prevents the dog from biting the handler? Well, it's because over the many many years breeders selectively bred only those dogs that would NOT bite the handler. But, there was something else they were doing and didn't know it. It had to do with the most fundamental instinct of all. The survival instinct. The old timers believed that a mean, vicious dog was never really game! Period! A man biter was put to death immediately. That is how strong their feelings were.

To better understand this we need to examine the survival instinct as it applies to Wolves in the wild, and in order for that to happen we need a scenario that commonly occurs in the wild. Let's say that a pack of wolves has just killed a deer and is in the process of eating. Since the dogs are very hungry they just start tearing away at the carcass and eventually there will be a piece of meat that two males, (just for argument sake), will want. Well of course there will be a conflict when that happens, right? The first thing one wolf will do is to start something called "threat display", by showing his teeth and raising the hair on his back to appear larger than he is. He might even growl to sound mean. This type of behavior is used so that he does not have to fight. The idea is intimidation first, then and only then will he actually fight. The reason for this is the ever present survival instincts. Being physically injured could potentially risk life itself, hence "threat display" You'll also notice that the fights the do happen are very short and almost never result in debilitating injuries. Again in the interest of surviving. All the slashing teeth, rearing up on the hind legs and so forth are variations on a theme. The aggressiveness is therefore considered threat display and as such is not, I repeat not a desirable trait when crafting a combat dog. Therefore, gameness and aggressiveness are not the same.

A game dog does:
NOT show his teeth.
NOT raise up on his hind legs.
NOT growl or make any noise other than maybe screaming or whimpering due to the intense desire for physical contact.


So, for people to say that these dogs are people aggressive simply because they have seen action in the pit is not because they are stupid, just uninformed.
THE PIT CONTEST:

Now we're ready for what really happens in the pit. Let's examine the dimensions first. A pit is typically 16 feet by 16 feet square and about 2 1/2 to 3 feet high. The floor is usually a thick carpet and the walls are made of wood. In the real world of TOP dog fighters there are only a handful of individuals at one of these matches. There is a referee, a second for each dog, a handler for each dog and a time keeper. there is a "scratch" line drawn diagonally from one neutral corner of the pit to the other. A dog must cross that line to complete his scratch. There is normally a ten second time limit from the time a dog is released until it crosses the scratch line. If he does not cross the line in the alotted time then the other dog is declared the winner.

HOW A MATCH BEGINS:

At the beginning of the match, both dogs are faced into their respective corners by their handlers until the referee, also in the pit asks the contestants to face their dogs. At that time the two handlers turn 180 degrees and face each other. When that happens the dogs get sight of one another and start to get pretty excited. they both usually start trying to get away in order to go after the other dog. The referee asks the handlers to release their dogs and the match has begun. To the uninitiated it's a bit strange because once the dogs make contact in the middle of the pit there is almost not noise at all. No growling, no raised hair, no snapping. Just each dog trying to get a hold on the other. One might grab an ear or a shoulder and try to wrestle the opponent to the ground. Then, the dominant dog will shake his head to try and punish the other dog. As the match progresses, with only the sounds of breathing, the dogs will swap holds, (i.e., take turns grabbing each other).

THE TURN:

At some point in the match one of the dogs might have second thoughts about wanting to be there so will show some signs of this by doing certain things. One of those things that we look for is the tail tucking. A sure fire sign that a dog is thinking of not continuing. The most subtle sign but more reliable is when a dog physically turns his head and shoulders away from his opponent during combat. This is called a turn. It is up to the handler of the other dog to point it out to the referee. When that has been done the referee announces to the handlers that a turn has been called and that they should handle their dogs at the first opportunity. This opportunity comes when both dogs are not in hold, (i.e., biting each other). This is when each handler in unison will grab his dog by the nape of the neck and put a hand under the stifle area to pick his dog up.

Each handler then returns to their respective corners, much like boxing. they must each face their dogs into the corner for 25 seconds and then upon hearing the referee say face your dogs, turn and face their dogs. The dog that turns first, must scratch first. So, the handler of the dog that was called for the turn must then release his dog first.

THE SCRATCH:

Okay, the dog that turned first must now go across the scratch line to prove that he still wants to dominate. If he doesn't cross the line in 10 seconds then he loses and the opponent is declared the winner. This is more often than not. Or, the losing dog will be too tired to complete the scratch on time. Again, this terminates the match. If a handler were to try to physically make his dog cross the line then again the match is over and the handler is called for a foul.

this was taken from a site that exhults in dog fighting, this is a test of gameness and thisi is what the owners of game dogs are looking for.

That is why CBT has insisted that his dogs don't snarl, lunge, or look aggressive thay are mentally to engrossed in the chilling idea of dismembering another dog.

I cannot think of anything more terrifying than a dog that fights to the death in silence.

Stan