Could you please give some examples?

I see it as all dogs of a certain nature can be assertive, pushy, shoving boundaries etc. Some breeds are perhaps more so than others.

I do think there is or was a culture amongst some breeds which included the owner being physical (almost expecting to have to alpha roll the dog at some stage) and the dog gradually upping the ante but again that's normal behaviour.

I think dominance an interesting subject to think about, but I know we don't understand nearly enough of it, and probably never will. Most of it's theories, and that's really important for people to keep in mind.
I train my dogs the way that works best for us, the way that gets the best results for us, and I think that training methods will differ from dog to dog. Some dogs need a more firm hand, and others need very gentile handling when training.
The only "dominance" theory I really bring into my training is that as a "pack leader" or "alpha" it is my responsibility to care for and protect my dog. Simple as that.

Dog's not allowed on the couch because the couch is for people, and nails will tear the leather. Dog's not allowed on the bed because there simply isn't enough room. Not because I think it will make him believe he is more dominant than I am.


But yes, like I said.
Dominance theory for me = that it's my responsibility to love, care for, and protect my dogs.

So is this dominance ?
Daisy gets excited and won`t give me the ball back. I turn away from her and walk off - she follows, I change direction a few times, she is now walking nicely to heel, adrenaline levels back to normal, all is right with the world - she sits when asked and gives me the ball. What could have turned into a confrontation has been averted and my leadership or dominance has been reinforced. Or has she just decided that being in my gang is more fun than sitting on her own?
I can`t help thinking that theories sell books - but dog training is a 2-way learning experience between dog and owner.

Dominance appears in most northern breeds (and probably others, although without that experience, I couldnt say), namely down to the breeds that rely heavily on inherant instincts, which have been bred out of most breeds. Northern breeds tend to be more independant and rely less on people, and yes many breeds push boundaries, and take a while to mature, but my breed, for instance, go through very strange phases, all which can be related to dominant behaviours, depending on their age.

I don't know anyone responsible that 'alpha rolls' their dogs, although similar behaviour can be seen between dogs (no they dont have hands, but they will lean on another dog with their front paws accross their shoulders, until the other dog lies down and submits etc).

With the sofa/bed 'thing', it applies to any dog, that the more you allow them at their pleasure (without doing something to gain a reward) the dog may possibly try other things, and think he doesn't have to do anything to deserve anything and therefore misbehaves because it hasnt been set any boundaries.

However saying that it's strange seeing a crated dog go mad, when another dog is on top in another crate, and yet that same dog is calm and placid, when that same other dog is beneath them in the lower crate ! That's also where some of the 'height' issues come from re bed/sofa etc. If a dog is permanently allowed at your height, they think themselves on the same level as you. Again, I don't think breed comes into it, any dog of strong nature, could be this way, my own dogs couldnt give a stuff

I've answered the alpha thing above, but examples of what ? (I forgot what I said in my last post )

Like I said, I think any dog of stronger nature can be assertive etc, but dominance is something else. To see a 8 week old puppy taking a dominant posture and trying to stand over you proudly, when you're laid on the floor is quite funny, but very obvious.

Assertiveness is trying to get your point accross, but dominance is vying for power, and yes with many dogs it's a power struggle, not just disobedience, but beleiving themselves that you are not capable of being in charge and therefore looking at you like you are talking cr*p and dealing with things their way anyway again quite funny to experience, and hard to explain or put into words, but definitely different from being disobedient, pure stubborn or plain thick I beleive it's a state of mind of the dog, and you have to 'teach' them to alter their way of thinking, not just bribe with treats or training (which is why many people with my breed give up so easily as dominant dogs aren't bribed with treats) and that's where the power struggle comes in. But once the dog 'understands' your way of thinking, that's it, it's not a constant training thing.

I'm not explaining this very well at all ! I know what I mean, even if nobody else does

I don't see a potential confrontation at all, I just see an over excited dog that wanted to play her own game !

No it's not dominance. And yes you're probably right, she just thought that her own game was no fun, when you walked away, so decided to play your way instead. That's just a choice she made.

Theories do sell books, and there are too many of them and too many dangerous ones doing the rounds and confusing people.

Like I said it's near impossible to explain, unless you experience it yourself, then it really opens your eyes and makes you think WOW, WHAT is this ?

I still don't see what you are describing as dominance. I see it as dogs knowing that if they do a certain behaviour then they get a certain response which is in their favour. This isn't dominance to me, not vying for power but a dog being opportunistic to make sure it has the best it can get, whether that be attention, food, place to sleep and whatever else they think of as valuable. They will therefore reinforce this by repeating the behaviour that got them the result they wanted.
This is why you are told when trying to eliminate unwanted behaviours that the behaviour will get worse before it gets better as the dog tries (and fails) to get the result it has previously been successful in achieving until it finally gives up.
Becky

I understood that dominance theory was based on observation of wolf packs (please correct me if I`m wrong). Dog packs don`t display the same behaviour - in feral dogs, `leadership` fluctuates: in scavenging for food certain dogs come to the fore, while the fiercer ones probably guard against aggressors,etc., while within the pack small relationships are formed for comfort and protection - not the hierarchy evident with wolves.
I`ve had 2 very bossy (dominant?) bitches - both tried to challenge me (taking the lead, saying who could and couldn`t approach etc.)
With training and time they turned into different dogs. Was this due to their dominance being subdued - or was it a process of learning that certain behaviour elicited a pleasurable response, and others didn`t.

I think we need to remember dominance theory is just that, a theory. It can be a useful tool in thinking about dog behaviour, but my concern is that its becoming the answer for every situation. It should be an aid to our understanding not a rigid regime for every dog. Dogs aren't wolves though of course there are links.
Personally i believe dogs need firm, kind leadership from their owners. They need to learn their place and to respect human authority. I'm not sure that's the same as seeing the owner as alpha. Personally I've never allowed dogs on furniture but i know others who do and their dogs are still perfectly well behaved and causing no problems so does it matter?

I don't think dogs do need to be led they just need to learn the rules, as we all do in all aspects of our lives. Once you learn and understand those then you can get on with your life, it's when what you know conflicts with the rules that there are issues.
Becky

I own a 'dominant' breed apparently So I've been told.

Fair to say, I don't own 'dominant' dogs.

To be honest, I understand that dogs need hierarchies between them but I don't believe in the inter human/canine dominance relationships.

I allow my dogs to act naturally together - I back up Eddy's position as the older, more respected individual - he has freer access to things than Takara does because she will push it with him, winding him up, but he only has to look at her 'that way' and she stops.

What really winds me up though - is people with a little bit of knowledge, having read one book (usually the dog listener) telling me about dominance and being 'pack leader'. I have one of THE most submissive dogs I've met. Not particularly with dogs, but with people.
But because she barks at other dogs when she's uncomfortable - she's dominant. Apparently I have to show her that I control situations so she doesn't feel she has to... nope - I have to desensitise her to the things she's afraid of - not push her into that situation.

I may not own a pack of huskies or malamutes or a pack of rottweilers, but tbh - I've seen rottie owners do alpha rolls and dominance displays when all was needed was a little bit of cooling off time being ignored for a while.

As for 'speaking dog' of course you have to understand your dog, but I'm not sure how comfortable I am with the idea that we can learn to 'speak dog' in order to control our dogs.
We're not living in a canine society. Our society is a human society, our dogs have no choice but to learn what is acceptable in human society. For this reason I would rather understand my dog enough to teach them how to live in our society than be the only one able to control my dog because it's learned that unless you're bigger and stronger than it, it can overpower you, which is what I've seen SO many dominance-lead handlers inadvertently teaching their dogs.