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Patch
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23-02-2008, 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by scarter View Post
I don't know what the natural dog training guys have to say about CM's viewpoint, nor do I know what CM would say about the NDT guys approach. But I'd love to find out!!!
This is what Neil Sattin says about the CM approach :

http://www.neilsattin.com/blog/2007/...-be-the-moose/

HTH
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scarter
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23-02-2008, 11:30 PM
Thanks for that!

Reading between the lines it does seem that he thinks the approaches might be similar. Perhaps just a different metaphor for the same thing??

When I watch Cesar Milan work, I often think that he’s actually being a lot more moose-like than alpha-dog-like. Maybe he couches everything he does in the language of “alpha” because that’s easier, in some ways, for people to understand, despite recognizing that something else is at work? Or maybe he really believes that he IS being the alpha dog? Perhaps one of these days I’ll meet Cesar (in fact, he’s good friends with the aunt of a friend of mine, so I might actually get that chance at some point), and we’ll be able to talk “dog” with each other. I better work some more on my alpha roll.
It's be good if that meeting did take place! Often when you look at the same thing from two different viewpoints you understand it a lot better!
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Trouble
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23-02-2008, 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
This is what Neil Sattin says about the CM approach :

http://www.neilsattin.com/blog/2007/...-be-the-moose/

HTH
I wish you'd said that his thoughts on Cesar were actually right at the bottom of the page I know I'm tired but all I could see was Moose, moose and more moose. Got there in the end though.
Cesar uses words such as dominance and alpha this is true but if you read the book and (no I'm not on a percentage), he explains it all so much more clearly than on the tv. Firstly he is talking about how to bring up any dog, whereas the tv deals exclusively with 'problem' dogs. Although I'm quite happy to use his methods I don't actually use either of those words. I much prefer the words leader and follower which he also uses but no one ever seems to pick up on.
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Patch
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23-02-2008, 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
I wish you'd said that his thoughts on Cesar were actually right at the bottom of the page I know I'm tired but all I could see was Moose, moose and more moose. Got there in the end though.
Sorry I was going to just give the link and quote the relevant paragraphs but it may then have been taken out of context as the moose stuff explains why he thinks CM is sort of moose like if you see what I mean
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mse2ponder
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24-02-2008, 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by scarter View Post
You see, that's where I think the approaches are very similar.

If I'm taking this thread off-topic then someone say so. But really I'm just trying to understand CM's approach in relation to another approach that I'm keen on. (I do very much like both)

*IF* I understand it correctly, both approaches end up in the same place. Your dog loves you, thinks you're the best thing since sliced bread and everything else just falls into place. CM does it by being pack leader. NDT does it by being the most prized prey in the doggies world. In both cases, once the dog understands the relationship it's plain sailing. Now I like the NDT approach because a) I like to interact with my dog that way, and b) my dog is a hound that loves to interact with me in that way. BUT --- once the relationship is established I understand that it'll be easy to stop the dog from jumping on me when I don't want her to do it. But as I've said, it's all new to me right now!!!
i think that this would be common to most if not all training methods - if the dog isn't interested in you, it's not going to work..

i haven't read Cesar's book, but i would imagine that due to it's medium, its content will be very different. The TV show is just that, a show and needs to portray quick results in order to maintain an audience. Therefore, the prong and illusion collars are used to aid this along with methods that may seem "heavy-handed". Also, the emphasis is on problem dogs - again, to maintain audience. Who wants to see someone training a puppy using positive reinforcement? ?! (well.. i'd watch it!)

it does seem to be a departure from his book, from what i've heard.. it's a shame that he's such a slave for ratings!
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Trouble
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24-02-2008, 09:04 AM
The tv program came first as he was becoming known for his success with "difficult dogs" so it probably followed that this was what the program was about.
However I do wish that anyone who sees the tv program and thinks they then understand what he's about and thinks they'll use his methods would go buy the book and read it.

The book is not a training manual, you wont find step by step instructions on how to get your dog to sit etc.
You can use a clicker or any other positive training method and still follow the mad mexicans advice. There is actually a lot of good stuff in the book, what most of us would describe as basic common sense, but common sense just aint that common anymore and maybe some of us need reminding.
The advice applies to all dogs, no matter what breed, what size, what temprement etc.
Everything revolves around 3 basics Exercise, Discipline and Affection. " Be reminded - this isn't a one time fix for a troubled dog. Dogs aren't appliances; you can't simply send them out to be repaired once and that's it. If you expect this formula to work, you have to practice it every day of your dog's life.
Exercise - should be the most important activity between dog and owner.
You need to walk with your dog, every day for a minimum of 30 minutes at a time. He actually recommends a whole lot more than this. The walk is the foundation of your relationship, it's where a dog learns to be a dog, learns about the environment, about other animals and humans, about dangers such as cars etc. It's not about going to the park and standing chatting to your friends while the dogs do their own thing. It's about making that connection with your dog. It's about leadership, having someone to follow, who will eventually lead the dogs to food and water and a place to rest. A proper walk should be just that- simple but structured.

OK if you're still with me, It aint exactly rocket science is it? Nothing too controversial so far.
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scarter
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24-02-2008, 09:48 AM
The exercise bit is easy and the results of doing what you describe speak for themselves.

The bit I find less easy is the discipline/affection thing. I completely understand the importance of setting boundaries. But I do have trouble sometimes convincing myself that she's a dog, dogs are different and she really WON'T be hurt if we eat before her, or if we make her sit on the floor when we're all on comfy chairs. I WANT her to do some of this 'peopley' stuff, but I'm not quite clear about how much I can indulge myself (and her - because she DOES like it too) without spoiling the dog.
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Gnasher
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24-02-2008, 10:11 AM
Oh what a tangled web we weave between us and our dogs. I cracked up at Patch's description "the moose stuff".

I have to say, after an initial skim through, I am interested and will have to read it all thoroughly when I have more time (just dashing off up north in a mo).
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Trouble
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24-02-2008, 10:17 AM
Originally Posted by scarter View Post
The exercise bit is easy and the results of doing what you describe speak for themselves.

The bit I find less easy is the discipline/affection thing. I completely understand the importance of setting boundaries. But I do have trouble sometimes convincing myself that she's a dog, dogs are different and she really WON'T be hurt if we eat before her, or if we make her sit on the floor when we're all on comfy chairs. I WANT her to do some of this 'peopley' stuff, but I'm not quite clear about how much I can indulge myself (and her - because she DOES like it too) without spoiling the dog.
Ok well that's easy too. Discipline doesn't mean punishment, it just means rules, boundaries and limitations.
"Discipline makes you a better person, makes you fit, makes you healthy, and helps you to have a healthy relationship. This doesn't mean I discipline my wifeby telling her when she's done something wrong. Discipline means as part of a couple part of a structure that tells me what my boundaries are. Because I'm disciplined I'm going to live up to my commitment. Discipline helps me stay on target, allows me to stay balanced, to be a respectful human being, an honest human being, someone who wants the best for himself and everything around him. Without discipline you can't be a good role model."
"Discipline is a serious business it exists in every species on the planet. When it comes to the dogs I tell them when to get up, when to eat. and how to interact with each other. I set the rules about where to go and at what pace. When and where to pee, who to chase and who not to chase. etc etc. Discipline is simply the rules that exist for the good of the dogs and for my relationship with them.

It doesn't matter who eats first what matters is that you say when and where it happens. You say how much and only feed when the dog is calm, and if you have more than one you feed the calmest first and the least calm last. Just get her to sit and wait when you give food, don't allow her to dive in and gobble it up before the bowl hits the floor.
Sitting on the floor isn't the big deal either, if you want your dog to sit on the sofa fine, just make sure she knows it's your sofa and she can get on it when you say so, and she has to get off it when you say so. It's all about respect. Don't humanise your dog, they don't think like we do.
What's this peopley stuff you want her to do?
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Borderdawn
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24-02-2008, 10:29 AM
Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
The tv program came first as he was becoming known for his success with "difficult dogs" so it probably followed that this was what the program was about.
However I do wish that anyone who sees the tv program and thinks they then understand what he's about and thinks they'll use his methods would go buy the book and read it.

The book is not a training manual, you wont find step by step instructions on how to get your dog to sit etc.
You can use a clicker or any other positive training method and still follow the mad mexicans advice. There is actually a lot of good stuff in the book, what most of us would describe as basic common sense, but common sense just aint that common anymore and maybe some of us need reminding.
The advice applies to all dogs, no matter what breed, what size, what temprement etc.
Everything revolves around 3 basics Exercise, Discipline and Affection. " Be reminded - this isn't a one time fix for a troubled dog. Dogs aren't appliances; you can't simply send them out to be repaired once and that's it. If you expect this formula to work, you have to practice it every day of your dog's life.
Exercise - should be the most important activity between dog and owner.
You need to walk with your dog, every day for a minimum of 30 minutes at a time. He actually recommends a whole lot more than this. The walk is the foundation of your relationship, it's where a dog learns to be a dog, learns about the environment, about other animals and humans, about dangers such as cars etc. It's not about going to the park and standing chatting to your friends while the dogs do their own thing. It's about making that connection with your dog. It's about leadership, having someone to follow, who will eventually lead the dogs to food and water and a place to rest. A proper walk should be just that- simple but structured.

OK if you're still with me, It aint exactly rocket science is it? Nothing too controversial so far.
Thats a good post Trouble.

It sums up how I see CM. He doesnt say you cant let the dog sleep on the bed, nor eat before you etc.. he says that fine as long as the dog knows its your bed etc.. and gets off when told. "Other" behaviourists say all these things are a definate "no no" to me thats enforcing pack leadership, although most "behaviourists" would say otherwise, as not wanting to be seen as seeing dogs as Wolves or Dogs.

I also do not see him as a dog trainer. I see him as somebody who tries to teach owners how dogs behave and shows them how to correct undesirable behaviour in a "dog" like manner. the "shhh" or whatever you say, is to me at least, the same as a warning growl from another dog, and the tap on the dog is akin to the snap of another dog if the growl isnt heeded.

My thoughts anyway.
Dawn.
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