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17-11-2008, 01:35 PM

Dogs as livestock

So as not to detract from another thread I thought I would start a new one regarding the status of dogs and when they become livestock.

As stated in another thread

Greyhound racing and the last time I looked they are not pets they are animals bred to do a job, yes?

They are not peoples pets being used to bring income, their owners do not claim to be loving them and they be their "babies" they are a working dog, period.


Yet it was also stated

Sadly some people really arent bothered about dogs, they see them as something to gain money from, I am so pleased that I dont fit into that category thank you.

Does this apply to all dogs that are being used to make money out of them ie puppy farmers? Which after all the dogs are working dogs as such in that they are being used to bring in an income?

Puppy farmers do not claim to love their stock, they are stock the same as greyhounds, cows, sheep whatever, they get rid of the animals when they no longer serve a purpose either to rescue or pts Ė pretty much the same as the racing industry.

So when does it become acceptable to use dogs as stock and for an income and when isnít it? In what ways is it wrong to see dogs as something to make money by but in others its fine?
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skilaki
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17-11-2008, 06:48 PM
I think, in short, it is acceptable to use animals as part of one's livelihood when that animal is treated with respect and compassion, and it's welfare needs are met. I have no problem with the typical working dogs, eg police dogs, sheepdogs, and believe that they are often happier and more balanced than many pet dogs. This is even though they are kenneled outside for the most part, and not many shepherds/police dog handlers claim to 'love' their sheepdogs/police dogs. They are a partner in getting the job done, and in most cases are treated as such. They farmer/policeman need the dogs to be healthy and happy in order to do a good job.

It can sometimes be the case that the welfare of a police dog/ army dog comes secondary to the welfare of the dog handler/ public. I think that this is acceptable in order to save human life or limb.

In my mind this differs from the situation where dogs are simply exploited for profit, as in the case of puppy farmers since the dog's welfare is very much secondary to profit. The dog is not a partner, it is a money making machine and is very often abused as such.

So far as greyhound racing is concerned, it is not something I know much about, so cannot really comment on what I think of the industry. Suffice to state that if the dogs suffer, then I do not think that is acceptable.
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Borderdawn
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17-11-2008, 07:10 PM
The quotes that Spot have quoted are mine, I thought Id fill you in on that first folks.

Greyhound racing and the last time I looked they are not pets they are animals bred to do a job, yes?

They are not peoples pets being used to bring income, their owners do not claim to be loving them and they be their "babies" they are a working dog, period.
I still agree with this, and it was in direct response to somebody breeding from a puppy who is claimed to be the owners "baby" and profitting from that. Greyhounds in training are NOT pets and teir trainers and owners dont claim they are. They are a tool, a dog to do a job. WHilst some may not like it, its very much like a working Collie.

Sadly some people really arent bothered about dogs, they see them as something to gain money from, I am so pleased that I dont fit into that category thank you.
And I said that too, in direct reference AGAIN to somebody breeding from a puppy who they claim is their "baby" If this is the case, I do not condone their actions, as pets are pets not money making machines. Perhaps I should of said PET owners not people

Does this apply to all dogs that are being used to make money out of them ie puppy farmers? Which after all the dogs are working dogs as such in that they are being used to bring in an income?
How can a puppy farmer have working dogs? I doubt they get any exercise let alone do a days work!!!! Working dogs are just that, Farm Collies, Racing greyhounds, Police Dogs etc... Most of these are NOT pets. they are however "stock" and there to make money for their owners.

So when does it become acceptable to use dogs as stock and for an income and when isnít it? In what ways is it wrong to see dogs as something to make money by but in others its fine?
That would depend wouldnt it. As you said, "stock" is there to make money, Pets are not supposed to be are they?
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skilaki
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17-11-2008, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Working dogs are just that, Farm Collies, Racing greyhounds, Police Dogs etc... Most of these are NOT pets. they are however "stock" and there to make money for their owners.
Agreed that working dogs are not pets and therefore are not treated as such. However, whether a dog is a pet or a working dog is in my mind irrelevant when judging what standard of care is acceptable. To illustrate: I think that it is acceptable for a pet to be kennelled outside, just as it is for a working dog, as long as both dogs spend adequate time outside their kennels, either working or having fun, interacting with their owners. The working dog might be out for most of the day, and therefore it is easier to keep him kennelled and stimulated. It is harder to keep a pet kennelled and stimulated as 1 hours exercise and then back to the kennel is not sufficient. If it was the pet of a dog walker and out most of the time, then that would be acceptable.

Another example, I do not think it is acceptable not to walk a healthy pet dog, just as I do not think it is acceptable to have a working sheepdog kennelled for days at a time without the chance to work sheep or at least have run of the farmyard for part of the day.

The same minimum standard of care should be provided to the worker and the pet. Workers may not be cuddled, sleep on the sofa or by the fire, but they are entitled to a healthy, happy, pain-free life just as much as pets.
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CheekyChihuahua
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17-11-2008, 11:32 PM
Whether a dog is a pet or working dog, I do not see any difference where fundamental care is concerned. The working dog still needs to have nutritious food, somewhere warm to sleep/somewhere in the shade, as necessary, vet care and a caring owner.

As far as the breeding of working dogs, again same situation, no difference in my opinion to a pet or a show dog. Only healthy dogs should be bred, necessary health checks carried out ................ and so on.

As for Greyhounds, I think these poor creatures get a pretty rough deal, overall. Okay, when their racing days are done they are placed in a rescue/re-homed but my Brother tried to adopt one some years back and the poor mite just couldn't settle in a home environment. She was fine when people were home but as soon as they were all at work/school, she made it her mission to get up the stairs and pee on their beds. They tried absolutely everything, from barracading the stairs to locking doors, but she scratched doors to pieces and had dangerous missions to climb over obstacles (gates included) to get up the stairs.

In the end, they re-homed her because they felt that she was suffering when they were out and she was only left a few hours each weekday. They found a lady who already owned two rescue Greyhounds, who was more than happy to take on Candy. She took a while to settle with them but she found it much easier being homed where there were other Greyhounds. Had my Brother not had the patience and understanding to wait until the perfect home was found for Candy, what on earth would have happened to her?

I hate Greyhound racing in any case, as I saw so much of it as a child (Father was a gambler ). Used to see the poor creatures shoved in those traps and then chase the hare like mad, in the freezing cold/wet/boiling hot, whatever weather! When I was a child, animal welfare was not the big concern it is today. However, I remember watching those beautiful creatures looking at the traps with their handler shoving them in and thinking what an awful life they had.

I hate to think of any living creature being used and treated as a "tool" Of course, we need working dogs, police dogs and so on but, from my understanding, these animals are respected by their handlers. I imagine a retired Police Dog is very carefully homed when it retires. I think there would be an outcry from the public, if they were not. For some reason though, Greyhounds are not always treated with such compassion - I don't know why that is but it saddens me so much.
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18-11-2008, 12:01 AM
The same minimum standard of care should be provided to the worker and the pet. Workers may not be cuddled, sleep on the sofa or by the fire, but they are entitled to a healthy, happy, pain-free life just as much as pets.
Whether a dog is a pet or working dog, I do not see any difference where fundamental care is concerned. The working dog still needs to have nutritious food, somewhere warm to sleep/somewhere in the shade, as necessary, vet care and a caring owner
A quote from each of you there, I agree totally with both.
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Moobli
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18-11-2008, 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by skilaki View Post
I think, in short, it is acceptable to use animals as part of one's livelihood when that animal is treated with respect and compassion, and it's welfare needs are met. I have no problem with the typical working dogs, eg police dogs, sheepdogs, and believe that they are often happier and more balanced than many pet dogs. This is even though they are kenneled outside for the most part, and not many shepherds/police dog handlers claim to 'love' their sheepdogs/police dogs. They are a partner in getting the job done, and in most cases are treated as such. They farmer/policeman need the dogs to be healthy and happy in order to do a good job.

It can sometimes be the case that the welfare of a police dog/ army dog comes secondary to the welfare of the dog handler/ public. I think that this is acceptable in order to save human life or limb.

In my mind this differs from the situation where dogs are simply exploited for profit, as in the case of puppy farmers since the dog's welfare is very much secondary to profit. The dog is not a partner, it is a money making machine and is very often abused as such.

So far as greyhound racing is concerned, it is not something I know much about, so cannot really comment on what I think of the industry. Suffice to state that if the dogs suffer, then I do not think that is acceptable.

I agree with Skilaki's post for the most part - except for the section I have highlighted. My hubby is a shepherd and he definitely loves his dogs, perhaps not in the same way as I love mine, but they are his best mates as well as his work companions and they are always treated with affection, respect and mutual trust. My ex-OH is a police dog handler/instructor. He also loves and respects his dogs. They are his life, his best mates and his work colleagues. The relationship between a good handler (in whatever sphere) and a working dog is a very, very special one.
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Moobli
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18-11-2008, 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
How can a puppy farmer have working dogs? I doubt they get any exercise let alone do a days work!!!! Working dogs are just that, Farm Collies, Racing greyhounds, Police Dogs etc... Most of these are NOT pets. they are however "stock" and there to make money for their owners.

That would depend wouldnt it. As you said, "stock" is there to make money, Pets are not supposed to be are they?
I agree with Dawn - I really don't see puppy farmers having *working* dogs, but from my own experiences I wouldn't say that our working sheepdogs or my ex OH's police dogs are "stock". They are work mates and colleagues and are there to get a job done - but they don't make money for their owners as such.

I do tend to see racing greyhounds as a rather different sort of working dog than a sheepdog or a police dog though, as they aren't there to *help* a handler do a job of work.
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18-11-2008, 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by skilaki View Post
Agreed that working dogs are not pets and therefore are not treated as such. However, whether a dog is a pet or a working dog is in my mind irrelevant when judging what standard of care is acceptable. To illustrate: I think that it is acceptable for a pet to be kennelled outside, just as it is for a working dog, as long as both dogs spend adequate time outside their kennels, either working or having fun, interacting with their owners. The working dog might be out for most of the day, and therefore it is easier to keep him kennelled and stimulated. It is harder to keep a pet kennelled and stimulated as 1 hours exercise and then back to the kennel is not sufficient. If it was the pet of a dog walker and out most of the time, then that would be acceptable.

Another example, I do not think it is acceptable not to walk a healthy pet dog, just as I do not think it is acceptable to have a working sheepdog kennelled for days at a time without the chance to work sheep or at least have run of the farmyard for part of the day.

The same minimum standard of care should be provided to the worker and the pet. Workers may not be cuddled, sleep on the sofa or by the fire, but they are entitled to a healthy, happy, pain-free life just as much as pets.
Excellent post.
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spot
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18-11-2008, 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post

They are not peoples pets being used to bring income, their owners do not claim to be loving them and they be their "babies" they are a working dog, period.

I still agree with this, and it was in direct response to somebody breeding from a puppy who is claimed to be the owners "baby" and profitting from that. Greyhounds in training are NOT pets and teir trainers and owners dont claim they are. They are a tool, a dog to do a job. WHilst some may not like it, its very much like a working Collie.:
Oh Ive seen plenty spout on about how they love their greyhounds and I suppose Im glad to hear that those you know in the industry do not bother to come out with that tosh about caring for the dogs! I take it you don’t love your dogs as they too are working dogs and only keep them for an income?

Its nothing like a working collie! A working collie is trained and bred to do a natural job. There is nothing natural about greyhound racing, greyhounds were not originally bred to run round in circle with tight bends all turning the same way for the entertainment of a load of sad gambling addicts.


Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
And I said that too, in direct reference AGAIN to somebody breeding from a puppy who they claim is their "baby" If this is the case, I do not condone their actions, as pets are pets not money making machines. Perhaps I should of said PET owners not people .:

Right so long as people do not say oh its my baby or my pet its just stock its fine to do what they want with it?

Yes you should of made it clear, so its ok for some people to see dogs as purely money making machines so long as its not labelled as a pet?

Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
How can a puppy farmer have working dogs? I doubt they get any exercise let alone do a days work!!!! Working dogs are just that, Farm Collies, Racing greyhounds, Police Dogs etc... Most of these are NOT pets. they are however "stock" and there to make money for their owners..:

Just how are collies and police dogs making money for their owners? They are there to ASSIST in a job being done, they are not just there to make money for their owners or entertain a few drunken louts on a boys night out!

Puppy Farmers use just the excuses you do to support greyhounds racing, they are stock and have a job to do to earn them money. They are very similar, they are expected to work in exactly the same way greyhounds are ie produce pups in an already over saturated market, earn money and once no longer useful they are dumped on rescues or in the nearest skip. They offer no back up, will never take a dog they have bred back if there is a problem, do no homechecks and have no care whether the dogs they have bred end up in rescue or slammed over the head with a spade. Sound familiar?


Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
That would depend wouldnt it. As you said, "stock" is there to make money, Pets are not supposed to be are they?

Sadly some people really arent bothered about dogs, they see them as something to gain money from, I am so pleased that I dont fit into that category thank you
Those who are involved or support the greyhound industry sit very firmly into that category.
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