register for free
View our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
amts
Dogsey Veteran
amts is offline  
Location: Denmark
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,713
Female 
 
14-07-2005, 06:09 AM
HUNTING

Hunt is a word used casually by many. In the opinion of some the word covers only one way of hunting or certain types of people (and maybe even certain types of dog).

First of all, a hunter isn’t some Rambo out there to get a rush. It is not all about blood and cruelty to animals or the exploitation of nature.
It is a way to provide food which differs from the methods used by the conventional farmer. A way to make sure that species will survive by controlling the population in certain areas. A way to prevent suffering by culling sick and injured animals. A way to help farmers and people who suffer damage caused by wild and feral animals which impacts on their crops and livestock and which, ultimately, affects your daily life. A way to work with and for nature. A way to work with your dog. And it is a way to spend your time, passion and money for the benefit of the natural world.

All animals taken by the hunt are eaten instead of buying something at the supermarket, or if the animal or bird is unfit for human consumption (because of illness, species, or damage), it will be used for other animals to feed from as would occur in nature. So nothing goes to waste and nothing gets hunted if it isn’t going to be used. To me that’s what hunting is all about.

Hunters are not made overnight and no-one can claim to be a hunter without an honest concern for the environment, animals, and a deep respect for his or her surroundings. One requires time, education and money, plus the desire to learn about nature, the animals’ habitats, their daily life, choice of food, illnesses, and reproduction.
Anyone who thinks they can be a hunter without all this is no true hunter.

To become a hunter you need to spend at least 6 months studying in schools with hunters of many years experience. You then have to pass tests, both on different species of birds, deer, etc., and on equipment and how and when to use it. You are taught safety and you will need to know the law as well. After that, you may have a license but as with a driving license, it’s only now you are ready to learn.

There are various ways to hunt depending on the quarry. The people who take part come from differing backgrounds, and the dogs used are of various breeds.

I would like to make it clear that, just as in the world of pet owners, there is certainly good and bad in the hunt world as well. However, the ‘bad’ are a small minority so do not let one disturbing story close your mind to the true picture. If we believed all the sensationalized reporting of dog attacks we wouldn’t have any pets at all. Exaggeration can happen in both worlds right?

I can only explain what I know and what goes on in Denmark. The hunts I´m interested in and to which I am invited at the moment are:


1. ”Trampejagt” in Denmark would be walking-up hunt in the UK I believe.
This means that the hunter, on foot, will search the area chosen and shoots the animal at a reasonable and safe range. Only wildlife rising for the shooter will be taken and it requires a high standard in safety and responsibility. In this type of hunt it is mainly rabbits/hares that are the chosen target.


The dogs used for this can be any that know and understand “hinter” and “retrieve”.
But they do need to be extremely well-trained and obedient or they will cause danger to the hunter, the wildlife, and themselves.



2. ”Anstandsjagt/trækjagt” (now I haven’t been able to find the English word for this, but hopefully my explanation will help) is used for ducks, pigeons, crows, and other birds, and to some extent deer and fox.
This method requires a great knowledge of the target’s daily routines, but it is against our law to build observation/shooting platforms or anything similar to this such as hides.


The choice of dogs used for this depends on what your quarry is of course. As a lot of waiting and patience is necessary, the dog must be capable of staying very calm over a long period and then have the ability to quickly “turn on” when needed.



3. ”drivjagt”’ – hmm sorry but can’t find that either (need new dictionary). But basically it’s done by having two teams working together. Before starting a “meeting” (we call it parole) is held. Instructions are given and no violations of these are permitted as this can be a very dangerous way of hunting for everyone and anything. All dogs must wear bells and they must at all times be under strict control. Both teams move within the area, taking turns moving forward.

Retrievers are the most common dog in this type of hunt.



4. ”Pürsch” – stalking of deer by a single individual. The hunter’s skill and knowledge of his quarry are all that matter here. He has to be silent, patient, and his dog must be the same. Often he is out for many hours and most times he goes home without any success, but with the experience of being close to nature (sitting there all day by himself). He will have plenty of time to enjoy the surroundings and to appreciate the silence and the company of his dog.

Breeds used for this vary, but they will mostly be dogs trained to track in case something goes wrong. The dog is therefore a safety precaution on this hunt. Here it’s called a sweissdog.



Now I´m well aware that there are plenty of other ways to go hunting and several other tasks for a working dog, but I have chosen to write about what interests me, what I do and what I would like to learn more about. As for the rest, I will leave that with those who have the patience and time to write just as long a piece as I have here, stating their arguments why such a topic should be allowed.

For all these hunts the dog that I use is a retriever. Her job is to retrieve game. Nothing more, nothing less. Under no circumstances will a retriever go after or kill the prey itself. The damage a dog can do to the prey renders the meat useless, and the stress a loose dog causes to wildlife will ruin any chance of any hunt.
We train the retrievers to have what we call a soft or gentle mouth and it will carry anything very carefully. Should the worst scenario happen and you only injure an animal or bird, the dog will gently bring it back to you without any further harm done to it. Eggs are used to test your dog’s mouth and they will retrieve these without even a crack in the shell.

It isn’t about getting pleasure and satisfaction from the hunt or the killing itself but about the pleasure and satisfaction of working with the dog I care for. I can certainly come up with arguments as to why a hunt is a better way to do many things, but I already have stated that in an old thread somewhere and do not think there’s reason to do it again?


I believe there would be a benefit for everyone in a Section which allows me to talk about the daily work I put into my dog. A dog won’t be a good working dog if the basics aren’t in place. These include not only breeding lines and health, looks, temperament and speed but, most importantly, the work you, as the owner, put into your dog.

What I need from a good working dog is first of all an obedient dog. The goal with all my training is: a dog that will know and obey its name; will know the meaning of various commands and follow them; will be eager to please; will trust me and whom I can trust 100 %; will stay calm when needed and turn on when necessary; will work at a required speed and keep it up no matter the task or the obstacles; will work independently when needed, but also wait for my help when needed; will be my friend and a family pet when at home. And much more really………….

But to achieve this also requires a lot from me too. If I am not capable of knowing my dog and reading her signals, whether close or at a distance; if I don’t know when enough is enough and the task is too difficult for her; if I do not provide the right food, training and rest; if I am not willing to learn and grow with her; if I do not think ahead and protect her from possible danger and impossible tasks, I have failed before I have even begun. If I do not do these things I have been unfair to my dog and maybe even lost her along the way.

As I have written before:

“Many exercises used in OB are what we "hunt ppl" (still haven’t found the right word) do and needs to be good at.
Why not share information, experiences and methods on how to get there instead of focusing if your dog is to retrieve a bird or a dummy?

Many exercises used in agility is necessary to master in what I do (turn, out, stop, etc). What not share this again? Does it matter if you want you dog to find a pheasant or to jump a jump?

And the list is really endless. It is the words and what ppl thinks instead of knowing going on that is upsetting. On both sides. It is frustrating and removes focus to why such section would be great.


I know a few might be stuck on what I wrote to begin with (the actual hunt) but I wrote that to be honest about what goes on. Not because I want to be able to debate it in the Section.

So I guess I’m asking for the Section to allow me to be able to talk about my training in a way that everyone can accept and not get offended by. If that means not mentioning wildlife, then let’s stick to dummies?

I know I can take my training questions and experience into the Obedience or Agility sections, but is it fair that I should need to cover up what I´m doing and change the way I talk about training? Would it be more fair, and would it make less people upset, if I wrote that I had a tip on how to make your dog turn at a distance saying I know from training in obedience classes? Or if I asked for help on how to how to make my “out” command work and lied to say that it is for my agility class and you all know that it’s a lie?

I´m fine with some restrictions that will avoid, or minimize the chance of, people getting upset but the restrictions should be fair to both parties.
I think Becs suggestion about no pictures is fine, and I also think not mentioning the actual killing would be fine too.

What I would like the people who get offended by this topic, and the prospect of having a Section in which it might be discussed, to do is to think about what I´m asking for, to read what I have been trying to express, and not to focus on what they think they know but to be open-minded and willing to learn, and to try seeing this from my point of view.

I´m sure that the people you worry such a section will attract will be few and their time on DW limited by the restrictions and topics.


I hope I have been able to express what I would like regarding the inclusion of working gundogs, and that you can now understand what I do. I guess the responses to this will show.

For those still awake, thank you for reading.

AM
Shadowboxer
Fondly Remembered
Shadowboxer is offline  
Location: Shadowland, Australia
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,358
Female  Diamond Supporter 
 
14-07-2005, 07:49 AM
That is an excellent and informative post amts, and just what eRaze was looking for I think. Your descriptions of the various types of hunt are factual and objective, and your dedication to training and working your dog in the job that she was bred to do is obvious.

Thank you for taking the time to provide us with this very interesting account.

SB
Graeme
Dogsey Veteran
Graeme is offline  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,517
Male 
 
14-07-2005, 08:08 AM
An excellent post AMTS.

I suppose I liken hunting with fishing. I could own a fishing boat with nets 3x the size of a football pitch and catch literally tons of fish. I prefer sitting on a small boat with some hooks and line like people have done for millenia. I don't need tons of fish, just a few, once I have enough I go home. The fun is in the method and the reward is in the resulting food.

Even if you don't get the new section I hope you will feel that you can post without covering up what you do.

I hope everyone, while not perhaps agreeing with you, treats you with the respect they would expect if they wrote such a honest and open post.
Graeme
bellaluna
Dogsey Veteran
bellaluna is offline  
Location: Denmark
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 15,212
Female 
 
14-07-2005, 08:27 AM
Hi AM

Wow, that is a great post and very detailed. And I've learned a lot about hunting already. Thank you for taking the time to do this.

While I'm not working Luna and probablely never will, it is interesting to read about wot you do and want to do. And if you and others, who work your dogs or is interested in working them, want a section to discuss this in, then I cant see the problem.

With a section for the working dogs, I believe people can choose to go and read or choose NOT to.

Excellent post
Hiya boi
Dogsey Senior
Hiya boi is offline  
Location: South Wales
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 499
Female 
 
14-07-2005, 08:53 AM
That is a trully excellent post very detailed and descriptive.Brilliant well done.
My husband uses our Springer spaniels for what you would describe as Trampejagt.We call it rough shooting here in Wales and it's mostly for rabbits and hares and done on farming land with the permission of the farmer .His only proviso is if OH should come across any foxes he's to bring them down cleanly for obvious reasons and the farmer is eternally grateful.Should any land border on water then he will also shoot all manner of wildfowl but he will only ever shoot what we can eat and no more and usually a couple for the farmers pot as well to keep him sweet
Emm
Dogsey Veteran
Emm is offline  
Location: Falkirk
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,713
 
14-07-2005, 09:24 AM
amts you have written a very good article - thanks for taking the time to do that and to explain

You know how I feel about it we are both very different yet in many ways we are the same - we both have a love for nature and want to develop a better understanding for it - its just we both try and do that using different ways. And even though we are different we are still friends ( imagine that an animal rights person and a hunter as friends!)

I can understand that going out in the way you describe to hunt for food is definately a better way of getting your meat rather than the horrible conventional way of going to the supermarket or butchers where the animals are mass produced and mass slaughtered with no respect for them and or understanding.

But my thing is if all the section is going to be about training methods that are commonly used in other areas of dog training eg agility, obediance etc then why not just post in the training section so that every- one gains from the knowledge that you have?


As for those people who think its a case of if theres a section on hunting you can just read it or not - I'm sorry its not that simple to me and its just as upsetting to me to have people trivalise that as it is for like amts to have to explain what she does

I think you should be able to talk about what you do but on the open board where we can all have an imput to it

If some-one started a thread on the main board about using their dogs to get rid of vermin I would be able to put my point across how I am against that and think it is wrong - but if it were put in a hunting section and I made comment on it I would be told just don't read it

This whole subject is such an emotive one - there is no right or wrong answer we all have to follow our own moral beliefs in life
Natasha
Dogsey Veteran
Natasha is offline  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,952
Female 
 
14-07-2005, 09:34 AM
Am that was brill, you included alot of detailed info that im sure alot of people didnt know about hunting like myself, and i feel that you provided a fairer discription of what you enjoy and why you think its important, if that does not get the hunting forum through nothing will, and best of all you were honest all the way through about what will be discussed, that really was excellent Am and i appreciated the time and effort you put into this, and it has given us all a chance to now look at hunting differently, thanks
Pita
Dogsey Veteran
Pita is offline  
Location: Lincolnshire
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,218
Female 
 
14-07-2005, 09:38 AM
Interesting post AMTS, my own breed, I think, would fall under item 3 Pursch (loshund or loose dog) and 4 Drivjagt (bandhund or leash dog). Would expect that there is a slight difference in the methods used for hunting large animals depending on the country in which it is taking place. Different laws, different terrain, different weather conditions and of course the history of the hunters of the different countries.

My own breed, Norwegian Elkhounds, are not generally used in the UK for the type of work described above or any form of organised hunting; I do know of a couple who are used for picking up and at least one is the working companion of a game warden.

It would seem from the history of most working dogs that they are very adaptable and are happy hunting, guarding, herding or as pets/companions of energetic people. In fact as long as they are kept working and active they are happy and fulfilled animals.

They, Elkhounds, are also able to be used for obedience and agility, herding, tracking, have good noses and make good guards because of the big voice that they love to use. The strange thing is they are totally silent when tracking and only give voice when they have their target held at bay. One other snippet of info with regard to my own breed, the RAF apparently imported a number of them to guard airstrips during the 2nd World War. They did a good job warning their handlers that there were intruders or strangers about but sadly got the sack because no matter how hard the handles tried they were unable to persuade the dogs to attack people and so were replaced with quieter dogs who did not have the long ingrained lack of aggression toward people and animals.
Emm
Dogsey Veteran
Emm is offline  
Location: Falkirk
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,713
 
14-07-2005, 10:04 AM
okay this is my second post because its been made aware to me that I am not being really clear in what I'm saying - so I am going to try again - its just I'm not very good at writing how I feel - so I will try again


instead of using the word hunting - why not use the word retrieving?
I am not against people who decide to shoot their own food and then use their dogs to retrieve ( I think its probably the better solution to mass farming and mass slaughtering of animals)

I am and always will be against people who use their dogs to kill other animals whatever the reasons for it be it vermin or whatever

Hope this makes sense now
Shadowboxer
Fondly Remembered
Shadowboxer is offline  
Location: Shadowland, Australia
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 7,358
Female  Diamond Supporter 
 
14-07-2005, 10:22 AM
Hi Emm

I understand and appreciate your position. However, the point is that using euphemisms, and covering a question regarding working dogs in the cloak of agility or ob, can be seen to be a little dishonest. Working retrievers retrieve game killed by hunters. The training for this is specialized and complex. Very different from sending a dog to retrieve on the flat in an ob ring or getting it to jump a pre-determined height without a heavy weight in its mouth.

I do understand your reservations

SB
Closed Thread
Page 2 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 > Last »


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools


© Copyright 2016, Dogsey   Contact Us - Dogsey - Top Contact us | Archive | Privacy | Terms of use | Top