My son brought a trained protection dog, a GSD, as he was working away and his partner was nervous on her own.

The dog was well trained by a trainer who trains for the police and armed forces and my son was screened before being allowed to purchase him. The trainers then met my son before deciding which of their dogs would be most suitable for his lifestyle. They then spend two weekends at the centre being trained to handle the dog. I am aware that two weekends isnt long but my son is experienced with dogs and there have never been any problems. I went with him when they collected the dog and we were shown how the dogs were trained and the trainers spend a lot of time with us, answering questions and giving advice.

The dog was expensive, but then any pedigree dog is expensive and he is a lovely dog. My son is very responsible and will eventually have another dog and train it himself but at that point in his life this wasnt practical. The dog training is continually reinforced but certain words of command relating to the protection part of his training are known only to my son and his partner. He is a very loving dog and has never shown any signs of agression towards anyone.

I would be worried if just anyone could walk in and take away a trained protection dog but the cost alone would limit the number of people owning one, and it is obviously important to make sure that the trainer is propery qualified in that field.

I would never buy a ready trained dog myself as I enjoy the bond created by training my own but can understand why some people perfer to do so.

Reputable breeders don' t make money from the sale of pedigree pups.
Police/rescue dogs again, no one person makes money.
Assistance dogs...no maney (or for want of a better word no profit made)>
I suppose that is my issue...the profit made. As soon as there is profit to be made then the dogs welfare will become secondary in a lot of cases.

Colliemagic, thanks so much for sharing that story. It's interesting to hear someone who has first hand experience. In all honesty though it hasn't allayed my fears, it's made them worse...2 weekends is nothing really is it?

Just a thought in to this one, if you buy a part trained dog, and are taught before you bring it away how to handle it are you actually paying for something you would have paid for anyway??

Ok example i used to take my springer to a gundog trainer, she is very busy and needs to work, he charged £25 per session i went once a fortnight for around 6 months and then put in all the homework and training in between, a part trained dog from him would have cost inf the region of £1000, in terms of cost i don't think theres much difference.

Anybody that buys a pup who is responsible, will get there pup then go to puppy class, obedience and will probably be at training classes once a week. The only difference is usually if you buy a part trained dog they are trained from an early age to do a specific job, and from experience i know that some of the things we trained at puppy class with my first springer, we are having to untrain as it clashes with what i need her to do when she works, for example she was trained to come back on one whistle through puppy class , and i now need her to stop on one whistle.

For me its swings and roundabouts i enjoy the training, but would i consider a part trained dog i wouldn't rule it out

Thanks for telling us your son's story, Colliemad. I personally do not have a problem with people buying personal protection dogs, so long as the dogs are trained by professionals who screen the prospective purchasers for their suitability for such a dog, and that the training and support is ongoing - as well as the dog getting a great home of course.

I have to say that having met a very dodgy character out in the middle of nowhere in a forest on my walk, just as it was going dark last night, I would have been quite happy if my GSDs were protection trained! Thankfully, I think the presence of both GSDs plus two large collies put the bloke off from being over-friendly! It is an unfortunate fact though that in this day and age, you just never know what kind of weirdos are hanging around - even in the middle of the countryside, and having a dog that you know is trained to protect you must be very reassuring.

I don't believe that reputable breeders don't make any money from the sale of pedigree pups. Example - my sister has Spinoni which sell for around £1000 a pup. Spinoni can have large litters. Say, for example, you have ten pups at £1000 each. Are you trying to tell me that it costs £10,000 to raise a litter of pups? Hmmm - I don't think so.

I also don't believe that because a *profit* might be made from selling a dog that suddenly it's welfare goes out of the window. I have never seen any evidence to support this theory.

I put *profit* because I don't believe anyone will make a huge profit on selling a trained dog - as training a dog to a good standard takes the trainer his time, effort and expertise. In most walks of life you have to pay to benefit from someone else's time and expertise - so why not in dogs?

Good post Moobli. I have to say, I also don't see how, depending on the breed and litter size, breeders do not very often make a profit. Your example of a Spinone litter is a good one. Of course, there can be complications with a litter that could eat into that profit, or wipe it out completely too, but that is not the norm.

I also agree that the welfare of an animal does not automatically go out of the window once money (and profit) comes into it. Good breeders select the families their pups go to even though they are often making a profit by selling the pups.

The same is/can be true of responsible sellers of part-trained dogs. Trainers have invested a lot of time and effort with the dog they have trained, and have bonded with that dog during the training process, and therefore are even more likely to want to know that that dog will be well cared for.

Yes the profits for one trained dog may well be greater than for one 8 week old pup, but in many cases are justified. Take the example of a trained sheepdog, gundog or protection dog. Presumably, a fully trained dog will be an adult, say 2 or 3 years old. Say also that that dog is sold for £3,000. During that time, the seller has boarded that dog, fed it, paid for vaccinations and other medical needs. He has invested time and effort in expertly training and exercising that dog on a regular basis, and it is only just that he is remunerated for that. He has perhaps called on other persons to help train that dog, either to act as distractions, or in the case of a protection dog, as a 'criminal'. Unless he has called in favours, these extra hands also need to be paid. He has invested in specialist equipment to train the dogs e.g. dummy launchers or sleeves/bite suites etc. It all adds up, and unless the seller is to make a loss, the cost of the dog goes up.

Look also at the benefits that the buyer of a trained or part-trained dogs gets - he hits the ground running and does not need to shell out for training classes etc. If he requires the trained dog in the course of his work e.g. shepherd or security dog handler, he can earn his living right away on the back of somebody else's hard work with the dog. He should expect to pay for that benefit.

Of course there are breeders/trainers out there who only wish to make a profit and don't care where their pups end up, but that attitude is not limited to those who make a profit. What about those who advertise pets as 'free to a good home' and let the pet to to the first person who answers the ad simply to get rid of the dog? They are not making a penny out of it, but just don't care.

As long as the training is done responsibly and these dogs are only placed in suitable homes, then I don't see a problem with the sale of trained dogs. With a bit of understanding and thought, the vast majority of dogs are able to move on quickly and adjust well to a new home.

As a aside to say Sledogs/sheepdogs/gundogs/Blind & hearing & Ass dogs etc,
id not be happy to sell a pet to someone who wanted it part trained/trained first.

Shone are you still sitting on the fence??

Ok heres my view: For a pet, i'd rather train it myself, too often people cause problems with their dogs and it takes a while to iron them out - which before anyone says is still training. It's nice to see the end result.

For a working dog: My pup, i am training myself - i struggle because i don't have a trained decoy - he is being trained in a variety of things however he must still be bombproof rounds kids etc.

As a juvenile or adult dog - invariably it will have had some training and it is up to you where you go from that. Good training gives you a head start especially if you have to go to work and hit the ground running - not all handlers who have a working dog have time to get it as a pup and run it on - you have to shop around and talk to loads of people though.

A pp dog - is generally going to a family situation so would already be trained and a handover would then take place with the emphasis on the need for continuation training. The onus is then on the owner to pick up where a trainer has left off.

Prices - largely people will say you get what you pay for - however there are good decent people out there who want to know where there dog is going, what it will be doing etc. You have to remember that for a trained dog you are paying for everything: Food, board, training, trainers time etc the list goes on - again you have to shop around!

yes... still swinging my legs... One of the reasons being.. I sold beau at 7.5 months old, he was fully trained.. far brighter than holly or vinnie.. I had never really set out to sell him.. he was a pup I took back, then a call came after he had been back here for 5.5 months, A farmer who had muscular problems and didnt really want a small pup,

I swithered for a while as to weather to give him a dog or not.. then it came down to beau or vinnie.. as beau was better trained I felt the transition would be better, also that it was the better dog for Andrew to have...
BUT... he went for half the price of what you would pay if you came to me for a 10 week old pup...

TBH.. If someone like Andrew came to me again, I would consider doing it again, people with muscular problems often make great owners but the tiny puppy stage is just too much for them,

Fair comment.. but assuming buying a trained pup.. it would be coming from an experianced trainer so wouldnt have training issues..

Okay, spinones are one of the more expensive breeds, for a reason though.
A reputable breeder will only breed if they want a pup themselves. They will only breed if their dogs have been proved as wrokers or show dogs. So lets take a show spinone.
A show spinone would have to excel in the ring before being bred from,we take that as read otherwise the breeder isn't reputable,as the dog wouldn't be 'proven'.
Said breeder has a litter of ten, she keeps 2 pups. A male and a female. She owns mum and mum's mum and another male. All of those dogs are shown and have been shown since they were pups...so there's expense number one. Showing dogs ain't cheap....especially if they are shown at a lot of shows.3 dogs at all the shows....so she needs entrance fees, car, accomodation, fuel...suitable in car transport for the dogs.
She also needs to feed and house all the dogs.
She needs to pay for vets fees/wormers/ flea stuff all the usual dog stuff...
The bitch has a problem post birth and gets mastitis and a couple of the pups need to see the vet.
The pups are all vet checked pre going to their new homes.
She needs a phone or PC to speak to all the new owners and arrange visits.
Pups go with 15kg of food and puppy packs....


I'm not seeing any profit...