anyone remember the 'tool' advocate on here? the way he explained to teach the prong? the 'pop'?if the case was pain isnt the way they work,that introduction style wouldnt of been recommended (im probably talking riddles lol)

..... imo yes,they should be banned.

..and ,when it comes to slip leads,i use the type with a stopper thats stops it constricting .

also i think metal choke chains have no place anymore.

I don't think most of you understand that prong collars do not inflict pain unless the handler doesn't know what they are doing. Properly adjusted high on the neck, the prongs are only active when the dog pulls and thus corrects himself. These collars are actually less harmful than the more commonly used choke chain collar. For a big aggressive dog, it is kinder to have some restraint that the dog does not even associate with the handler. I advise you do some more research before jumping to these wild conclusions regarding prong collars.

They were not designed to work by causing pain.

What would you suggest as a kinder alternative where management is needed? I'm thinking here of say small lady with Great Dane that pulls when walking.

I hate headcollars with a vengeance, but do realise that there are times when management is needed while training takes effect.

As for harnesses, I feel a well fitting standard harness is far kinder than a collar. In an ideal world we would, of course, need neither, but we live in the real not the ideal world.

Nor do I as a rule. And although I really dislike shock collars, for example (which of course are banned in Wales anyway), I think they can have a purpose in certain extreme situations (when the safety of the dog is at stake) where other methods might fail. I can't say the same for prong collars. But admittedly I am coming from a soft, citified pet owner angle.

I so agree with you. I do not enjoy goofy, undisciplined dogs, especially BIG dogs with no manners. Too many people have very low standards for their dogs, thinking their dogs are just too cute and special to require any training. I have never hit or yelled at my dogs, but I expect them to mind me, and if using a prong collar on a large dog with fear-based aggression problems towards other dogs is what I need to do, then I don't have a problem with it. I know how to use one properly so the dog is not harmed.

Would you like to do a simple experiment?

Grab a pin, then fit it into a clamp (so it's upright) then sit on it.
Then grab something flat, and sit on that.

Then tell us there's no difference

You draw the line on whether it inflicts pain and suffering on animals or not.

Bans *do* work - very few people would be stupid enough to use shock collars in Wales these days

Keep telling yourself that, in all honesty, they were, they work because your dog can't pull against the pressure, why is that, if the word uncomfortable is easier, great, painful is honestly more accurate

No, harnesses and collars are not easier, I've always found it's easier off lead than on tbh. However, when you've got a great dane and an 80 year old woman scenario, there are management issues, and the person I would suggest people look at for articles is someone called Lizi Angel, she knows her stuff and can recommend harnesses and head collars that don't work by causing pressure and pain.

I think you need to keep telling yourself that tbh but it's something we can easily settle - given the choice of having to wear something that works like a halti (for humans) or a prong collar, which would you choose?

In fact I'll challenge you - I'll wear a halti-for-humans if you wear a prong collar, and we get to take each other out for a 'walk' and to a 'training session' and use both like they are often used on dogs.