I don't KNOW..but I love my dogs too much to take the chance!

Life is full of risks Tassle, we cannot protect ourselves or our dogs against them totally. All we can do is to minimise the risk. So I personally feel that Cesar was justified in using rather extreme measures to reduce Daddy's risk. Being a pitbull his prey drive, tenacity and sheer bloody mindedness means that drastic measures were needed.

Mini, with the greatest respect you took considerable pains to consistently delete posts made by myself and others that were in your opinion off thread. And yet here you are doing exactly the same thing! Going off thread. Tut tut!! O well, I guess when you are a moderator it is one rule for you, one for everyone else fair enough.

I have consistently been attacked by Claire just because I use methods of training which in her opinion are cruel. She is quite entitled to her opinions of course, but she is not entitled to accuse me of being cruel and abusive, which she has done over the last few days/weeks. If you can't take it, she shouldn't dish it out.

I shall ignore your nasty remarks about me in your posting Minihaha and just put them down to jealousy.

Right, let's get back on track. You say if you lived in the States you would have the gumption to find a snake-free place. Where? How? America is a huge place. We have learned that the snake training with Daddy took place in Southern California, which if my geography serves me correctly is nigh on a desert scrub area, hundreds and hundreds of miles. How far do you consider it would be to travel for a walk every day just to avoid snakes, assuming you had the time and the money to be able to do such a thing? How do you know where the venomous snakes are?

My dog is very good at "leave", but I haven't got eyes in the back of my head, and I cannot be guaranteed to watch him so intently during the whole of a walk that I am ready to shout "leave" ! the minute I see a snake ! Doubtless he would see or hear it long before me ... one bitten dog.

Sorry, I had to go and walk my dog ... off lead, no snakes, no e-collars !! I will resume the search later, but from the short time I was googling I did not come up against any "anti" snake training sites. I found one that was in favour of e-collars for this type of training.

I think the best thing is if we wait until Promethean is on line so we can ask him about the whole snake issue in the States. Is it hyped up, or is it a serious problem, especially in snakey areas, whatever and wherever they might be.

But I for one won't condemn my dog to a life on the lead ! If I lived in Southern California, with Tai, and he was in grave danger from rattlesnakes, I would not try and solve the problem by keeping him on a lead! I would do everything I could to train him to leave the dang things alone, and most probably I would be able to, but should I completely fail, and any dog trainer I employed also failed, then I would consider calling in an expert in the use of an e-collar. But I have to say it would have to be the most very last resort.

Humm....I have a friend in the USA who works a lot with Pitbulls...she has never had to resort to these methods.

Also - from what I understand this was a fairly old dog...Had CM had him any length of time? It surprises me that he had just, at that point in his life, decided that he needed to be trained to be frightened of snakes.

Yes life has risks.....do you not feel there is any other way to teach dogs to avoid or steer clear of dangers....or is it the quick fix thing that appeals?

Surely you can find a safe area?

It's a nice sentiment but while you are trying to train him off-lead and without the e-collar, he might be bitten.

Good ! Because using an e-collar on a dog is not good. It should only be absolutely and very last case scenario.

Cesar adopted him off someone, I forget the story, various people keep telling me, and I forget.

Yes, to your third paragraph! Yes but I do keep saying that e-collars should only be used when ALL OTHER METHODS have failed. The quick fix thing does not appeal per se, but if we have a life and death situation, as Cesar thought he had, and IF all other methods have failed, then try the e-collar - in expert hands of course.

http://www.onetruemedia.com/shared?p=75ee101ac5fd2ef0d399b5&skin_id=601&utm_so urce=otm&utm_medium=text_url

Note Cruisers recall

True, but I personally would take the risk rather than just go straight for the e-collar. It would really depend on how determined the dog was to get the snake. Daddy was pretty determined, Tassle reminded us, along with some other of Cesar's dogs.

Tai - provided I "get his attention" before he has made the initial "break" - can be stopped in his tracks from chasing anything, even sheep. But Hal? No, never. I think with him in that situation I would have had to consider keeping him on the lead whilst trying to train him to leave. He had such lightening reactions though, although possibly not as lightening as a snake - the thought of an e-collar is horrendous. I hope I am never in a situation where I would have to decide!