Again I have to disagree (I like a good arguement though, so it's all friendly).

Metals (among other things) are not going to be destroyed by cooking. There is alot of goodness to be gotten from even cooked veg (otherwise why would we have survived on cooked veg?) the steaming helps to break up the cell wall - which if you remember from school is the hardest membrane to break down in nature. Steaming can help this and therefore helps the dog get use out of the insides of the cell.

Apparently dogs do have the capability of synthesising their own Vit C, but the latest thoughts are that not all are capable of doing so, especially those on a low protein diet.

A properly fed BARFER will not of course be lacking in protein. However, I am not sure how one would test whether or not one's own dog is synthesising it or not, and as you would have to feed massive doses of Vit C to your dog before any harm would be done, I prefer to err on the side of caution and make sure any dog of mine gets this vitamin.

Jess: sorry, your post crossed mine. You are quite correct of course that metals, such as iron, do not get destroyed by heat. I am racking my brains now to remember back to my physics lessons - I know most vitamins such as C are destroyed very easily in cooking, but it is still better to feed pureed raw veg to a dog, as indeed it is better for us to eat raw veg such as salad than cooked, for the same reasons.

Brain's been racked, and I can't remember which vitamins are, or not, destroyed by heat, but Billinghurst advocates the feeding of raw pureed veg, so I will look up why and get back to you!

It's alright I am quite aware (different vits differ in how long they last, vit c is the most sensitve to cooking, E and A and carotine are destroyed more by length of time cooking)

I was sticking up for feeding veg no matter cooked, steamed, pureed, raw whatever.
I don't think it is a good idea for people to avoid veg at all costs as we are living with 'wolves'. We don't know what wild wolves do in their spare time, why they might eat dirt and clay to supplement minerals.
As I said there are vegetarian dogs that seem to survive so we can assume dogs can digest veg.
It really bugs me when people mention that dogs are wolves. Esp. regarding pack theory but that is another thread!

There is 000.2% of a difference between dogs and wolves. Their digestive systems are identical. What's not to compare?

I truely don't understand why add various fruit and veg to the diet (whatever way you prepare it) since it's not found in a natural wild dogs diet, in any form. It's just not needed. And if they were required, why didn't nature provide them with the tooth structure and digestive system necessary to process and derive nutrition from veggies? Fruits and veg simply are not natural foods for dogs to eat.

Rubbish. Since dogs do not have the necessary
enzymes in their saliva to process CHO, the pancreas has to manufacture extra enzymes to digest them which puts strain it. Pancreatic disease and diabetes is caused by inappropriate foods.
http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html
It's not possible for a low CHO diet such as raw feeding to contribute to diabetes. I know at least one dog that has come off medication since changing to the prey model diet.
I also know of several dogs with EPI that are being successfully treated on the prey model diet. So long as their diet contains pancreas in it they are doing fine.

Selenium, vit A, B, E, D, copper, magnesium, manganese, zinc and potassium are all found in, say, raw liver. Iodine is in fish and beef has lots of chromium. Dogs manufacture their own vitamin C, and raw foods also have vitamin
C in them.
Check out this website for info on what is contained within various foodstuffs; be sure to type in "raw" as well as the meat/bone/organ you are wanting to learn about;
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

Fiber was mentioned earlier alos; dogs do not need fibre in their diet, not to be confused with humans that do.

Now, what about those poor cows and horses.....
I reckon they aren't getting enough protien and fats in their diets; Perhaps we should feed them some meat and bones?

Jess: I can go on pasting up quotes from Billinghurst's book until I am blue in the face. It will be very boring for you, and extremely boring for everyone else, so may I suggest you buy his book, if you haven't already done so. It explains why you MUST feed raw pureed veg, not cooked veg. I will concede that cooked veg is better than nothing, but it is marginal. Far better to do the raw pureed route.

I've got to take you task my darling when you say that it bugs you when people mention that dogs are wolves. What on earth do you think they are ... plants? Birds? Dogs are canids, and were recently reclassified thus:

"In 1993, the Smithsonian Institution and the American Society of Mammalogists reclassified the dog from its separate species designation of Canis familiaris to Canis lupus familiaris. So, now, the Timber wolf (Canis lupus nubilus), the Mackenzie or Tundra wolf (Canis lupus occidentalis), the dog (Canis lupus familiaris ), etc., fall under the genetic umbrella of the gray wolf: Canis lupus."

So once and for all, lets pop this chestnut firmly back into bed shall we ... lets all agree that dogs are domesticated wolves, with the same dietary needs - a hundred thousand years of domestication is not going to alter these ... before I get all crossy !

Interesting what you say though about vegetarian dogs. There are indeed such things, an abominable thought, they cannot be healthy, but they can live - just, not lustily, but doubtless they can survive - just like we can live on a diet of Macdonalds - perish the thought, I can't think of anything more disgusting. But we certainly would be most unhealthy.

Evie: nature does indeed provide dogs and wolves with the teeth and digestion to eat predigested vegetable matter. I posted this quote before, but I shall do it again as you must have missed it. Copied from a scientific paper:

"Wolves (Canis lupus) feed mainly but not exclusively on flesh, deer caribou, moose, beaver, hares, domestic livestock and plant material. The carnassial teeth shear flesh; crushing molars process vegetable food".

That seems to be pretty clear to me that 1) it is generally accepted that wolves DO eat vegetable matter, and 2) have the teeth to do so. Ipso facto, wolves eat fruit and vegetable matter, and therefore so should their domesticated descendants, our dogs.

You say that dogs don't have the enzyme to digest vegetable matter. They do not, they do not produce cellulase ... which is exactly why they eat the stomach contents of their herbivorous prey ... they don't NEED to produce cellulase, the herbivore produces cellulase and does all the work for the wolf ... isn't this fantastic? Isn't nature amazing? And what do you do? You say it isn't true !! Come on Evie, you are obviously very intelligent, just admit that you are wrong. I will admit one thing I am wrong about ... dogs are not omnivores, they are primarily carniverous with a limited herbivorous requirement. We are omnivores of course, pigs are omnivores, cats are carnivores. So ashamedly I am apologising for being dogmatic and wrong ... your turn sweetie ! :smt021

Pancreatic diseases and diabetes are indeed caused by inappropriate diets ... diets high in carbohydrate, particularly refined carbohydrate. However, it is the fibre found in vegetables which IS important in preventing and treating certain diseases of the digestive tract, including obesity, failure to absorb food - including diseases of the pancreas, diabetes and Pancreatitis.

These diseases are rife ... even in modern dogs fed vegetable free raw meat and bone diets. These are the facts coming from our more enlightened veterinary community. We can all quote cases of this and that - I know of a dog who lived to 18, a large dog, on the most godawful crappy diet you could ever imagine, on some foul, cheap kibble and nothing else - but that does not mean to say that this was healthy, or that something else was unhealthy.

To say that dogs don't need fibre in their diet is absolutely not true. They need fibre ... the insoluble fibre that can only be found in veg. and fruit.

What else do veg and fruit supply that definitely cannot come from raw meat, bones and organs, as vital as these are? Folate is the first one to spring to mind.

So there we have two vital ingredients - folate and fibre that your dogs will be missing from their diet.

Evie: please don't try and be sarcastic - it is the lowest form of wit and the highest form of vulgarity. Cows and horses are herbivores, you know as well as I do what their diet should be - although having said that, I used to have a horse who adored rare beef sandwiches (not that I used to give him those on a regular basis, he would snatch them out of my hand occasionally when I wasn't concentrating!)

Now it's time to kiss and make up : :smt058

Being told I am trying to be sarcastic and am vulgar;
I no longer wish to take part in this discussion.

How someone can openly say an animal is a carnivore and then say they MUST have veg in their diet is beyond me.

This is me shooting myself : :smt071

I'm sorry Evie, I really am, I've never met anyone as stubborn as you ... what are you like !!

I don't think you read what people write do you ... I did not say wolves were carnivores, full stop, I said that wolves were carnivores with a limited herbivorous requirement - note the words in bold. I think I made myself quite clear, but if I didn't, please tell me and I will explain again.

The scientific paper I took the quote from regarding the diet of wolves ...

Wolves (Canis lupus) feed mainly, but not exclusively on flesh.

It goes on to say ... The carnassial teeth shear flesh; crushing molars process vegetable food.

This is not me making this up to be clever ... this is a statement taken from a heavy scientific paper.

Sorry you feel you don't want to discuss any more

Evie:
I was intrigued by the link, and it requires further reading on my part, regarding absorption of minerals from veg v. liver.
There is something bugging me at the back of my brain about dogs on only meat, but I can't remember, will get back to you soon (and thanks for the link).

Gnasher:
no need to turn the arguement nasty, we are allowed to disagree but remember you have to keep an open mind and not cherish your opinions too much, otherwise you will get yourself in a corner!
Of course I have read Billinghurst, he was a pioneer in his field, HOWEVER the word pioneer means that he started the ball rolling; others came after to make it better.

The bodies system having to work hard (digesting veg) regularly, can reduce the life span of the dog.

Curious Bees
I think perhaps we can agree that there are multiple lines of thought on this, and instead of saying we are all wrong look for the things we have in common, and do what we can to come up with a solution for all. Remember that the books we are reading are one persons opinion, there is currently no research to prove which is better, we have to use our common sense.

Which to me means understanding genetics and science a little too. If they were one and the same, wolf and dog would have the same classification, but they don't. That 0.02% is because we domesticated them - of course you then have to think how we did that?

Also food for thought (excuse the pun) it strikes me that dogs have been fed on scraps, dog food now delicious human grade food (!) their bodies are designed to cope with alot, which is pretty amazing!!!