In reply to CC's can't quote as it wont let me.
Firstly me comments re red eye was not to do with a dogs eyes shining in light at night, the implication was these dogs were red with rage.
Secondly it was Gnasher who brought up that it was a wolf cross and shouldn't be treated that way because of this, implying that it is OK to treat other breeds like this because they are not wolf crosses.
I never said the noise didn't work I was just saying how it is probably working for CM, yet more abuse to get his desired result.
Becky

Fair do's on the first two points but I think it's unfair to say that the tssssssst thing is working for CM using the "shock" tactic, as that is merely your own idea and there is nothing to confirm that at all. Obviously, you've a right to your opinion, just saying I think it's a little unfair, is all.

Yes I agree we are all human and I am sure we all loose the rag sometimes. As a friend heard on a seminar (cant rem who by) 'we have to treat dogs as dogs, and we have to let them treat us like humans, and being only human it means we will sometimes do something unpredictable, but if most of the time we are kind and fair then the dogs will forgive us'
As for the Shadow episode being wrong - yes I totaly agree, but I dont see CM at the end of the episode saying that he had made a mistake, that I would be v happy with him for being big enough to say - nope that episode was aired as an example of his training methods - he looked pleased with himself at the end because he had won - although I believe what both dogs learnt in that show is not good at all (the Collie that he let shadow lunge at finnished the episode with its tail between its legs - his response 'is your dog always like that with its tail tucked up?' and the owner 'NO!'

TBH I havent really had a chance to speak to her yet, she was mortified but I was more worried about getting Mia away to the vets as blood was pouring from her mouth and the owner was on a nightshift last night so we will meet up today hopefully. She put Lucy away and came to see me in tears but I just had to get Mia dealt with. I am not angry at her - these things happen and she thought she was doing the right thing as its what she has seen on the TV and its how everyone else round here treats their dogs. Of course also 'there but for the grace of god go I' I have a reactive dog, it could have just as easily been blood pouring from Lucy as Mia, although Mia was on her back and screaming she was in no way submitting.I met Storms owner and was talking to him so that how I knew what was going on.


and for the Alpha roll fans
Lucy jumped on Mia and pinned her on her back - that is the first time I have ever seen a dog actually put another on its back and it was NOT a nice thing at all. Lucy was not dominating or being calm - she was going in for the kill and Mia was in no way submitting, she was screaming and fighting for her life (there are a couple of bites on Lucys nose so she was fighting back - but not enough to do too much damage)
So if that is the real life situation when the dogs use that behaviour then take a proper think about what the dogs really think CM is doing to them when him, a total stranger takes them, in a stressed state, usually surronded by the things the fear - and pins them, by force, to the floor

If you read my original post you will see I said he uses that technique while hiding the remote for the shock collar behind his back so it's accurate!
Becky

Qoute from CC Does it matter what breed the dog was, one way or the other?
Well I for one would be fascinated to see you alpha-rolling your dogs.

Yes, that thought brought a smile to my face

Not something I've needed to do up to now (wouldn't have a problem doing it though if I thought it would help a situation) but I think I read somewhere on here a while back, someone saying that dogs don't alpha roll each other. Mine do! Quite regularly actually. It's usually when the young'uns are bugging the older Chis and they do it to let them know it's time to stop. The point is taken by the young'un too. No aggression as such, just a quick flip and a paw on the chest. It's quite sweet watching Chis do that to each other but I imagine it might be different with larger breeds

A quick flip? I'd love to see them doing it too each other. I have NEVER had any dog roll another, one may be offering an appeasement gesture by rolling on their back but I have never seen one dog flip over another ever.
Becky

It's that opposable thumbs thing again.
I occasionally wrestle with my dog and it has to be said he's mince at it. He doesn't get guard, is very bad at locks always turns his back.
Mostly he just looks bemused to be honest.

Dog's can't alpha roll each other. They don't have opposable thumbs. The behaviour always has to be offered voluntarily.

If I am ever quick enough to get the camera and do a quick video of it, I'll be sure to post it (have to admit I'm not really a "technical" but I'd do my best).

Please don't doubt it though, it happens and regularly. I've also seen my old Yorkie boy do it to a JRT when it went after his Mum (which was actually a Bichon but he thought she was him Mum ). He was the most dopey, docile dog you could meet and I was truly shocked when he flipped this JRT over and stood on his chest. Luckily Stan (the JRT) was not the hyper type that some JRTs can be and he took it well

Thats fine if thats what you see.

But "I" just dont see that.

I see dark & scared,

The beauty of it is we can all watch the clip & decide for ourselves.