Hi joedee, not sure if your agreeing or arguing with me - lol!

What i meant was regardless of where they come from, they are being bred for anything BUT looks, which i personally like.

What I meant by Jekyll and Hyde, was not a bad thing... I meant that they can be calm and sociable one minute but under INSTRUCTION they can turn into snarling bad-guy getters. Basically they are being bred for being highly trainable and not looking pretty, which i wish i could see more of.

One of the ones I met looked exactly like Akela, just HUGE
this is akela...

I would like to see temperament testing for all breeds prior to mating, as well as and in line with health testing. Just basic stuff would be a start. Boarding a lot of dogs you wouldnt believe what dreadful temperered dogs we have in that have either been used at stud or bred from. Somebody mentioned Springers, yes the temperaments are very dodgy in many cases, but the hyper I see I think is lack of mental stimulation in a domestic situation.
Dawn.

I firmly beleive Genetics play a huge part in a dogs "makeup" I own 2 Boxers, and they have both been brought up exactly the same, socailization/training, but they could n`t be more different my boy comforms to breed temperament "self confident/biddable/self assured.

But my girl lacks confidence, and this in my opinion is the couse of her dog aggression, she relys on bandit and me to give her the confidence she lacks.

The way they are brough up does play a part in your dogs charactor , but you can only work with the raw material you are give.

I really beleive that any breeder should along with all health testings on their dogs, before breeding them should also be required to temperament test their dogs before they breed.

I am afraid in my experience it is the large professional kennel that will be the ones ignore the temperament of their breeding stock, the next show dog is all that matteres, hoe many of us now of a champian (any breed) that is used at stud , regardless of his /her temperament.

Give me the smaller breeder any day,one that has ethics, and if they have a dog who does not conform to temperament ,will not breed from said dog.

Breeding for TRUE breed temperament and character IMO is so so important! we shouldnt be changing ANY breed to suit our needs or to fit in to our life style! If you cant not handle any part of your breed, then dont change the dogs temperament or character, find a breeds that fits your life!

Would u breed out the collie instinct to herd?
The Lurchers Instinct to chase rabbits etc?
The Retrieving breeds insticnt to retrieve?

If you did would the collie be a collie? etc

Are you saying these GSDs are over sized sorry but over sized GSDs end up retiring early & have more health problems & are very unlikely to come from working GSD breeding as they as I have already written have to conform to the breed standard. I had an oversized GSD(he was 31 + inches at the withers) & unlike all my other GSDs didn't make his teens. he was from German lines but the show size & was a one off as the rest of the litter were normal correct size

Working GSDs should never ever be snarling bad guy go getters they should bark on command & be silent when sent in, snarling is never acceptable in a working dog so if these police dogs have been snarling to show aggression they are untypical & need their aggression severely curbing

Sadly the public perception of a good police/service dog(& that of some their handlers too sadly)is of great shows of aggression during protection work, this is in fact totally incorrect & the watch word is ultimate control. Police dogs in the UK are no longer allowed to bite randomly as in the past & now it is only acceptable if the handler believes his or other innocent persons safety is at risk, the training of protection work in service dogs often leaves a lot to be desired as they start with protection work long before they have full control
of the dog & then the aggression in lots of the gifted dogs is brought to the surface & the so called Jekyll & Hyde dog is produced

Sorry but working GSDs should never ever be split personalities they shouldf be 150 % good temperament all the time & then the protection side of their work is safe & under control

I personally don't do breed showing and I prefer the working bred, high drive, strong willed "full on" type of collie, that's just me. I have done more than my share of companion dogs shows as part of re-education for Ben when I first brought him home. Kelly loved these shows as did Ben as they got food and the chance to show off which both of them loved. Deef was not so keen and put up with them because I asked him to , he is more of an "action" dog. Deef is so laid back he is almost horizontal, yet he is a loon once he is out. At home he lies around watching television and the dogsitter has trouble getting him off the sofa for a walk. He is far more placid than any other dog that I have known. I saw a lot of people who were obviously far more serious than us at the small shows. All of our dogs had to stand still for longer than is natural BUT all of these other dogs had this "attitude" about them. They went into the ring and paraded around with a "look at me" swagger. Every dog I saw without exception was up for it in every way and every owner stated that they were really easy going at home....... like Deef. I think that dogs that are shown do well because they enjoy it, not because they are happier to stand still for any length of time.

I train with the best trainers and dogs you can imagine and this in the toughest discipline there is. Our washout is used world wide by policeforces, army etc. We have total controle over our trained dogs. even so that a dog send on an attack can be recalled within the last inch. (try this with an untrained dog and our dogs start bitework at the age of 6 weeks. obedience starts much later at +/-5 months when they are teething (we can't do bitework then). And for the Jekyll & Hyde thing. These dogs are confident and calm but when they are send to attack they becomme mr hyde. I prefere this over a dog that asks the bad gay to come to him and put his arm in their mouth because they are to lazy to move. So from personal experience i can say that you're statement is false.

greetings

Johan

So you train to bite without control ?????????? Loaded gun with the safety catch off I'm very glad that my friends in Germany do not train your way & BTW I sent a BC to Germany who qualified IPO etc & he was trained for control first & the actual sleeve work on a human came when total control was in place. This dog represented Germany in international competitions against the traditional European breeds & beat them all

First: Ipo is a breedingtest and not a policedogtraining programme. so the demands are different. IPO is sort of a ballet whereas Ringwork is down to earth work.
Second: the pups are trained to bite with minimal controle and when they get to an age where they can inflict damage the controle is imposed. So what's the problem. I don't know of one bite incident to tirth parties with these pups.


Greetings

Johan

Oh dear not this argument again...

I believe Dobies can be 'daft as a brush' sometimes, I think your taking the meaning to literally Dawn, I think they are still bold and fearless, but can be silly sometimes! Like they are also name couch potatos!

And again, its true, Roxy would never get off our sofa if she didn't have to eat

I think that breeding to pet life is a GOOD thing in some cases. even the breeds you are talking about are bred from something else.

Dawn - you know as much as I that a Dobermann is bred from 7 other dogs to become the perfect intelligent guard dog. Was this right? Breeding for personal benefit??

Yuo have to think back that its all just evolution at the end of the day, and if people are breeding to turn things like SBT's into 'pets' then so be it