No - to my mind - any person - is a very different thing to any person educated in dogs.

But heigh ho - won't go there would not be a first.

My point (badly put across or not) was any person that owns a dog should be educated enough to know a dog that was fit from one that wasnt....even more so them judging, breeding and showing/competing with dogs.

No, every dog should be fit for function. Those that still have a function should be proven fit and able to carry it out effectively. If the Pug has no function to carry out, then it cannot be proven, obviously. With breeds in this situation nothing would need to change other than to ensure it is fit to function as a dog. Utilising health tests and sensible breeding practices would achieve this.

Jealous, of what? What makes you think this? Please elaborate Dawn as you've genuinely lost me. Or is it another case of the fact you disagree with me that suddenly makes me green wih envy?

Could you repost the pics you posted of the Show Springers in full, excessive coat hunting and flushng game in thick cover (their original funtion remember, the Springer was not bred or created to be a Retriever) as I must've missed them, apologies.

Oh and I've never deemed the working type Springer as correct either, just for the record.

O how I'd love to see some poodle peoples faces if their dogs had to go out and do a days work and their coats got ruined and dirty! Personally I couldn't care less because as long as Blu is having fun the coat can be sorted or trimmed shorter!

I do think dogs should be worked in some way (agility etc) to show they can do other things rather than walk up and down a ring.. But my breed is vert smart and most of the time needs some form of working to keep their mind active. That's why Blu does agility, obedience and hopefully flyball next summer!

Nope, the pics are in this thread Rips, easy enough to find. It would be foolish to assume you could see any dog in "thick cover" so of course no picture will show you that, but they do show show dogs doing what they should in the terrain you say they cant work in.

Im wondering if its because of Isla's problems that you seem to be very anti now? A genuine question Rips, you were very pro show dog/working dog and you have offered nothing to back up your claims that they cant work, just your opinion. Yet people have posted you links and stuff showing you they can and indeed do work, with good feathering.

Blu, Blu must be having such a great time with all of that poodles are such clever and agile dogs and imo they don't deserve such the 'girly' rep they have, I'm sure I've also heard of Poodles being used as police dogs before, I've also heard of a man who works them putting silicone or something in their coat to protect it, I've even heard of a poodle sled team, that competed too until the man was told that they wasn't allowed

He would just wreck the house otherwise because he has so much energy!

Poodles can be used for nearly anything. I would love to see a criminal being chased down the street with a poodle in continental clip People don't realise the girly image was actualy designed for working. Even when Blu has blue bands and wraps in people still call him a girl and act shocked you can get a male poodle

I was talking to a woman in America a couple of years ago now about the poodle cut, and she gave me a full list of why the cut is how it is, I found it fascinating, there was a reason for everything, even up to the ball on the tail I have that list somewhere, and have brought it up when a lurcher man was moaning bout them, but its on my computer, if only more people knew the real reason for the cut, which was never intended for fashion to begin with, even if to some people now thats the way its gone. Also bless Blu being thought of as a girl, tbh I don't think films have helped much with the rep Poodles have, if I've seen a poodle in a film their always very girly dogs, most the time if the have voices stuck up too lol.

Oh I'm not anti at all, I enjoy showing, I just don't enjoy seeing breeds being ruined by peoples egos and their desperate need to win, be it in the show ring or the working field. My opinions haven't changed, perhaps you just haven't paid attention in the past? I'm still for working show dogs, the Show Springer is the correct dog when compared to the breed standard and can still hunt and work as a gundog - as long as those breeding them pay attention to the breed standard and breed dogs with moderate feathering!

So I'm correct in thinking you haven't posted any pictures of Show Springers in excessive coat (as illustrated by the second pic I've posted) hunting and flushing in thick cover? Didn't think so! As I've said, a Show Springer in such excessive coat as shown in the second picture cannot fulfil it's purpose as a hunting dog when faced with thick cover. Just because a Springer of such description can manage to hunt and flush on open ground does not make it acceptable. It certainly wouldn't manage in these parts as has been proven by the Show kennels I speak to who work their dogs and trim the coat off to enable them to work them. I'll say this one more time Dawn, the breed standard calls for moderate feathering for a reason and that reason is it's original purpose as a hunting dog. A dog bred to hunt should be able to face any cover and excessive coat prevents this from being possible. Not my opinion, but fact from the very mouths of people I have spoken with who hunt with their show dogs.

Isla's only problem is her attitude, other than that she's fit as a fiddle!

Oh and I'm still waiting to find out what I'm supposed to be so jealous about? Could you enlighten me do you think?

Well said Dawn, iIm glad its not just me who has noticed this. It saddens me most of all when you see puppies in that state. IMO puppies should be well covered