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tawneywolf
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26-10-2013, 03:37 PM
I suppose you 'make money' by skimping on the welfare of the mother and babies.
I never elbow scored because I was told it wasn't necessary, and I've never heard of a Utonagan with ED, but that isn't to say there aren't any. Now elbow scoring is done at the same time as hips, and we have driven our mean average on hips down to 18, looking at the current
Breed Specific Statistics, the GSD, are an 18 too, and they have had a heck of a lot longer than we have to drive their scores down, so looks like they aren't that bothered. The border collie/working sheepdog coming in with a 13, so looks like they may be bothered.
There ARE Utonagan with epilepsy, these seem to have the same dog in the background, which is no longer in our breeding programme, although the 'breeder' owning this dog has used him in 'another breed' and there is epilepsy amongst them. Another breeder also brought epilepsy into the line they were breeding, (by using that self same dog despite the evidence) and thought it a good idea to 'breed it out' that wasn't such a good idea after all really. No one else followed this train of thought actually, so there are several dogs and lines that need to be steered clear of, and we are aware of this one. The greatest problem now is excessive line breeding and in breeding, which is still going on in some cases. I am careful to run a COE on my matings and the reason I brought Cruz into our gene pool was because both parents are KC reg and therefore their history is traceable. I already know the history of my own dogs going back many generations.
Why should you have struck a nerve
There are many many many KC reg breeds all sufferers of epilepsy, HD, skin problems, digestive problems and eye problems, all caused by non health testing and in breeding.
Seeing the term 'well bred' rings alarm bells to me, it usually means both sides of the pedigree are virtually a mirror image. Until the KC gets to grips with all this and stops it, and it can, look at the tail docking, they stopped that, so it can and should be done, then dogs will continue with the problems caused by breeders. The story of the epileptic collies appalled me, but the way it was told to me was factual and everyone accepted that was the case, and no worries, as long as it was good at flyball/agility, to me it is totally unacceptable.
I really feel you should be directing your energies towards those breeds that need it, and not those that are working on health. Maybe even working on those at the KC responsible for registration of litters from non health tested parents
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Gnasher
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26-10-2013, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by tawneywolf View Post
I suppose you 'make money' by skimping on the welfare of the mother and babies.
I never elbow scored because I was told it wasn't necessary, and I've never heard of a Utonagan with ED, but that isn't to say there aren't any. Now elbow scoring is done at the same time as hips, and we have driven our mean average on hips down to 18, looking at the current
Breed Specific Statistics, the GSD, are an 18 too, and they have had a heck of a lot longer than we have to drive their scores down, so looks like they aren't that bothered. The border collie/working sheepdog coming in with a 13, so looks like they may be bothered.
There ARE Utonagan with epilepsy, these seem to have the same dog in the background, which is no longer in our breeding programme, although the 'breeder' owning this dog has used him in 'another breed' and there is epilepsy amongst them. Another breeder also brought epilepsy into the line they were breeding, (by using that self same dog despite the evidence) and thought it a good idea to 'breed it out' that wasn't such a good idea after all really. No one else followed this train of thought actually, so there are several dogs and lines that need to be steered clear of, and we are aware of this one. The greatest problem now is excessive line breeding and in breeding, which is still going on in some cases. I am careful to run a COE on my matings and the reason I brought Cruz into our gene pool was because both parents are KC reg and therefore their history is traceable. I already know the history of my own dogs going back many generations.
Why should you have struck a nerve
There are many many many KC reg breeds all sufferers of epilepsy, HD, skin problems, digestive problems and eye problems, all caused by non health testing and in breeding.
Seeing the term 'well bred' rings alarm bells to me, it usually means both sides of the pedigree are virtually a mirror image. Until the KC gets to grips with all this and stops it, and it can, look at the tail docking, they stopped that, so it can and should be done, then dogs will continue with the problems caused by breeders. The story of the epileptic collies appalled me, but the way it was told to me was factual and everyone accepted that was the case, and no worries, as long as it was good at flyball/agility, to me it is totally unacceptable.
I really feel you should be directing your energies towards those breeds that need it, and not those that are working on health. Maybe even working on those at the KC responsible for registration of litters from non health tested parents
As with ALL pedigree breeds, Utonagans have had their problems. There were unscrupulous breeders, jumping on the "wolf" band wagon, etc. etc.

I am struggling to understand why ... when you are doing everything you can to be a responsible breeder - that you are being criticised and villified.

Peut etre could it be a touch of jealousy I ask myself?
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tawneywolf
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26-10-2013, 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
As with ALL pedigree breeds, Utonagans have had their problems. There were unscrupulous breeders, jumping on the "wolf" band wagon, etc. etc.

I am struggling to understand why ... when you are doing everything you can to be a responsible breeder - that you are being criticised and villified.

Peut etre could it be a touch of jealousy I ask myself?
Only the one person criticising and villifiying me Nikki, everyone else seems to be onside, then again, there's always one. In the scheme of things, it is relatively unimportant, the type of feedback I got today from the couple coming to meet my girls, the people who have already had babies from me, the success of my older babies in their lives are proof of the pudding.
If you choose to stick your head above the parapet, then you must expect to be shot at. After all, I am doing the unforgiveable in some people's minds, breeding a non-KC recognised dog, Perish The Thought
Could it be that watching the fast demise of the breeds the KC recognises, the ill health deliberately bred into them, the endemic sickness that is there, I have voted with my feet and thrown my hat into the ring of a breed in the making where I not only have input, but I am listened to by people equally interested in keeping our dogs as near as possible to their founder's dream, no exaggerated features, just the dogs as they are.
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Gnasher
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26-10-2013, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by tawneywolf View Post
Only the one person criticising and villifiying me Nikki, everyone else seems to be onside, then again, there's always one. In the scheme of things, it is relatively unimportant, the type of feedback I got today from the couple coming to meet my girls, the people who have already had babies from me, the success of my older babies in their lives are proof of the pudding.
If you choose to stick your head above the parapet, then you must expect to be shot at. After all, I am doing the unforgiveable in some people's minds, breeding a non-KC recognised dog, Perish The Thought
Could it be that watching the fast demise of the breeds the KC recognises, the ill health deliberately bred into them, the endemic sickness that is there, I have voted with my feet and thrown my hat into the ring of a breed in the making where I not only have input, but I am listened to by people equally interested in keeping our dogs as near as possible to their founder's dream, no exaggerated features, just the dogs as they are.
I don't understand why this one person is villifying you - again I say it must be jealousy. You have picked up the ball and are running with it, trying to right the wrongs that have been done.

Every single pedigree has health problems, caused by inbreeding almost exclusively. I detest this moral banner that some people like to carry that pedigrees are ethically bred, have all the health checks etc. etc., when clearly this is just not true.
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tawneywolf
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26-10-2013, 09:00 PM
I think they are finding something like 40% inbreeding in some breeds, the 'safe' percent is around 8%
I've not gone above 3% on any of my litters, still produced type, am now getting the health results going in the right direction, and working on widening the gene pool with the addition of Cruz, who I have bought jointly and had health checked.
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Chellie
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26-10-2013, 09:05 PM
I can't see me ever buying a dog from a breeder of either pedigrees or crossbreeds as I tend to take in the waifs and strays.

Given a choice of pedigree or crossbreed at a rescue centre it would be the mutt that won every time though.
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Gnasher
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26-10-2013, 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by tawneywolf View Post
I think they are finding something like 40% inbreeding in some breeds, the 'safe' percent is around 8%
I've not gone above 3% on any of my litters, still produced type, am now getting the health results going in the right direction, and working on widening the gene pool with the addition of Cruz, who I have bought jointly and had health checked.
Yes I know, but you are forgetting that they are pedigrees - KC registered and recognised - therefore everything and anything goes. Pedigrees, don't you know, are healthy
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Gnasher
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26-10-2013, 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by Chellie View Post
I can't see me ever buying a dog from a breeder of either pedigrees or crossbreeds as I tend to take in the waifs and strays.

Given a choice of pedigree or crossbreed at a rescue centre it would be the mutt that won every time though.
I will say it until my dying day - you cannot beat a good cross. Whether you are talking about humans, horses or dogs!

The bigger the mix the better!
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Jen
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26-10-2013, 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by Chellie View Post
I can't see me ever buying a dog from a breeder of either pedigrees or crossbreeds as I tend to take in the waifs and strays.

Given a choice of pedigree or crossbreed at a rescue centre it would be the mutt that won every time though.
This is me all over. I rarely even get to choose between my rescues since they all choose me let alone choosing between pedigree, non pedigree, health tested and non health tested!
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Chellie
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26-10-2013, 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by Jen View Post
This is me all over. I rarely even get to choose between my rescues since they all choose me let alone choosing between pedigree, non pedigree, health tested and non health tested!
And you get as much pleasure and reward out of them as people who choose to buy a health tested, top of the range pedigree dog. Yes you might have to deal with health problems but you could be the unfortunate one that gets an unhealthy puppy from fully health tested parents, happens I'm afraid.
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