awe... thanks moobli.... thats such a nice thing to say. lol you may change your mind once you have met the ugly critters

Visually impaired guide dog owners do, in the main have their dogs trained for them, but the difference is they are blind and it would be dangerous for them to be out on the streets trying to teach their untrained dog shoulder and kerb work. (although there is a charity that helps people to do just that, but generally with the help of a sighted person too)> Many other assistance dog charities work WITH the person and their pet dog, so it does happen.

A visually imparied person with a guide dog is TRAINED how to work with that dog for a minimum of 3 weeks if it isn't done at home and 5/6 weeks if all the training is done from home. There are then many follow up visits and calls and the new owner needs to assess the dog on a monthly basis for 6 months (I think) and send in a full report to guide dogs. It isn't easy taking on a guide dog and any training of the dog is ongoing once the dog is actually placed. So I don't feel it falls into the same category at all. In this instance the owner is trained to handle the dog properly and that is also ongoing. There is a massive network of support for them and the dog remains, at all times under guide dogs ownership. It really is totally different to part training a sheep dog and selling it on. Whilst many may keep in touch with the owner and offer support, there is little the initial trainer can do if the dog is poorly treated/training goes to pot etc. Nor would the initial trainer be able to offer the same level of support if the dog stops working.

I can't comment on police dogs as I don't know the set up as well.

But there are so many different scenarios, Ailsa - not just working sheepdogs!

I agree that it is fantastic (and essential) that blind people are given the back up from Guide Dogs regarding the handling of the dog, the ongoing training etc. Guide Dogs are a huge charity though, with enough funding/staff etc to allow them to do this.

so in theory... it does no harm to a dog, to be trained by one person...and handled by another?

which I guess leaves the debate open...to which situations... people feel its appropriate?

But I think a part trained working sheepdog/gundog being sold to a new owner being compared to a trained guide dog being given to a new visually impaired owner can't be done, that was the reason for my last post, as you compared the two, I was just saying why I don't think they are comparable. Yes, guide dogs are a huge charity...not sure what that's got to do with it though as the important issue should surely be the welfare of the dog.

I have already said what I think about the protection dogs that are being sold for extortionate sums at the moment.

I do not have a downer on working dogs, sheepdogs or otherwise. I just question whether part trained dogs should be being sold on for lots of money...be they protection dogs,working sheepdogs, gundogs etc. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what I think as it will happen regardless..

It totally depends (IMO) on the training given to the handler and the support offered in the future. I also feel uneasy about money being made from it if I'm honest.
the welfare of the dog HAS to be the top priority.

Like many doggy debates, I guess it comes down to what people feel comfortable with themselves, and their own experiences about the topic in hand.

I do not think it harms most dogs to be trained by one person and handled by another. Of course, some dogs will be affected and won't work for a new handler etc, but I do think they will be in the minority. As long as the said dog is being treated with care and respect, is well treated and fed/housed well, then I am sure the transition will be smooth.

This thread was started to find out what other members thought of buying a trained dog ... whether that be a working dog, assistance dog, a pet, a show dog - whatever. I think the topic is large enough to encompass all kinds of situations.

I was actually intending the discussion to mainly focus on the discussion we already started on the working dog thread, about whether people would be prepared to pay a higher amount for a pedigree pup that had been run on by a breeder and socialised, house trained etc etc., but it already seems to have been turned around on the working dog owner again

I have no problem with you questioning whether it is right to part train any dog and then sell it on for an amount of money - but would be interested to know why you are questioning whether it is right or wrong? What do you feel is wrong with it? I am genuinely interested in differences of opinion

You may feel it doesn't matter, and that it will go on regardless, but the whole point of forums surely is to discuss dog matters and put forward our opinions.

I am probably being more vocal today than normal, as I am housebound for much of the day and find chatting on here more interesting than doing the ironing!

I think it depends on the circumstances but with the last 3 of my dogs being adult rescue dogs, I can see definite advantages in having a ready part-trained dog.

Most members of dogsey are experienced with dogs and very much see the 'whole package' - they enjoy all the training and, more importantly are experienced and capable of doing it.

But just because someone isn't enthusiastic about training a pup or going through the house-training period, doesn't mean that they will be a bad owner and I think there could be many good homes for people like this who wouldn't consider gettting a pup (or who do get a pup but make lots of mistakes in the training).

And for working dogs, it seems to make perfect sense to me - many of the people who do use their dogs to work for a living won't necessarily have the time to train a young pup - so why not let someone else?

There are two things that I would worry about though...
getting a part trained dog isn't the answer if the new owner doesn't know how to continue the training and make sure they don't contradict what has already been learnt.

And as for the specific example of protection work, that whole area makes me nervous, (possibly because I haven't had any direct experience of it), but I think it is the one area where I would be very, very unhappy about a dog trained to bite being given to a novice handler.

But why can't they do both? Tonks started training at 8 weeks, and we trained everyday, but she also was a puppy and played the majority of the time too. Training was never serious......maybe it is different because i am not into training for competetion obedience, agility or any other sport so all that we do is fun and light hearted so i feel it can start as early as when the pups come home. I do all clicker training and also a lot of shaping, quite often with nothing particular in mind, just seeing what the pup offers me and enjoying watching them think and work things out.