You know what I think? I think people might ask for and even take advice on board but, at the end of the day, they usually do what they wanted to do in the first place. And they are often just looking for 'opinions' that agree with them or validate their own thinking. Bit like deciding something on the toss of a coin and then keep tossing until you get the result you wanted!

I would never have bred my darling Cavvy although everyone wanted me to because she was at the smaller end of the breed size and the vet told me that the breed was getting bigger and bigger and it wasn't as simple as choosing a 'little dog' because that dog might have 'broad headed' dogs in its line and she could get into trouble birthing and would probably require a C section. That was enough for me. NO WAY would I put my beloved dog in harm's way or take any risks at all with her for the sake of having a puppy from her. That's like gambling with her life but knowing you'd get a consolation prize if you lost (the pups)

Same thing with Bella - little runty Bella - definitely the smallest minpin I've seen although according to breed standard she is within but at lowest end of size stated.

The reason so many people ask me if she will have pups is the same reason they asked about my Cavvy - because both the Cavvy and the Minpin are so tiny and look so cute - well I had no way of knowing how big either of them would end up. And there's no saying that because the mum is tiny the pups will be. Bella's mum was small too but all her brothers were three times her size even when only 10 weeks old. They dwarfed her.

So what happens with people who 'want a dog' for a particular 'appearance' reason if that dog turns out not to conform to what they wanted?

If you want another dog - buy another dog. You will be able to see what you are getting then. And not leaving it to chance that it will be a carbon copy of its mum.

I have actually been persuaded not to do it thanks guys, I did come and ask because I really wanted to know what people thought good and bad. What I wasn't prepared for was to be called selfish because I wanted to enhance my dogs life by getting her some companions for when her beloved Mollie is no longer with us. I was persuaded by two personal experiences from Malka and Trouble but some of the other posts especially calling me selfish could have pushed me into a corner wanting to prove them wrong and I could have made the wrong decision for Betty because of that.

I just think when trying to persuade someone not to breed some posters need to be a little more careful if they chase people away then they won't even be able to come back and ask for help if things go wrong.

So thank you all who have talked me round and I am sure Betty says thank you too although when she goes to be neutered she may just be swearing at you too

Julie,I didn't comment because I have no experience with dog breeding but I found your thread very educational.Alot of advice given i wasn't aware of and I think its an important issue to discuss. I understand your reasons for bringing it up and in no way do I feel you are being selfish.Obviously a responsible dog owner weighing up the pro's and con's.You had taken on board the views of others that you found important and have made a decision.Fair play to you I say

Thank you Eileen, we were just dreaming I think and needed a bit of help seeing it wasn't a realistic dream. Nice while it lasted though LOL

Thank you Julie for understanding what I said and why I said it. Yes it was a long time ago and yes I never had problems with a bitch whelping after that [although they sometimes did need a bit of help], but I still feel that I destroyed the loving nature of my girl - at least in my home.

She was only too happy to go and had a wonderful [and totally spoiled] time for the remainder of her life, because she was away from the home that caused her personality to totally change.

Incidentally they changed her name and all the elderly people in the nursing/care home they ran adored her. So at least I have the knowledge that it was right for her to go, but I still feel guilty about having caused her personality change.

I don't think you should feel guilty Malka you did your very best at the time and after, some people wouldn't have done as much as you, you should really let the guilt go and accept you did as much as you could. And relaying your story you may have helped stop Betty going through it too so please stop the guilt !

I have showed dogs for 25yrs and have just bred my FIRST litter. I dont think I will be doing it again. My bitch was perfectly fine, whelped easily, and adores her babies, but it has really knocked her about. From a top winning show dog, she has lost all her muscle and given everything to her puppies, she looks awful to me, despite people telling me how well she looks. She is eating far better than I am, and eating every few hours, but still rearing a litter takes its toll. it IS selfish Julie, WE do it to them, WE make them get pregnant, its OUR choice not theirs.

Ok yes it's selfish in that respect but that makes every breeder selfish, so who has the right to tell Julie she's selfish for wanting little mini me's of Betty. I think at some point we all dream of replicating our "perfect" dog but common sense kicks in for the responsible owner and they start to see all the possible pitfalls.

Yes I think, ultimately, all breeding is selfish as its something humans do to dogs in order to fulfil a wish of theirs, be it money, improving their preferred breed, to gain kudos in showing rings, to produce puppies for them to keep... It's not something the dogs have expressed an interest in doing!

If everyone decided to stop being "selfish" dogs would eventually become extinct,would they not