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10-01-2011, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle 
Adam I continue to find your posts very worrying - you seem to demonstrate at every turn that you do not truly understand dog behaviour - just the desired results that you get quickly.
You seem to be almost understanding here when you say that just because we feel pain does not mean the dog does....surely you can see that this also goes the other way?
I Will say again - dogs are Stoic creatures - who will often not respond to pain for various reasons. One being fear - if you are afraid it is not not wise (from an animals POV) to show pain, that would make you vulnerable.
In high adrenalin situations you will find the same.
Thinking that a Yelp/Jump is the only way you would know this again demonstrates a lack of understanding of animals full stop.
Something tells me you don't want to understand as you 'see' what you want.
As to people saying that - it says far more to me about today society and wanting everything now...without the work or effort being put in to do it kindly.
Dogs are stoic to chronic pain/discomfort. Sudden pain will create a vocal response and movement.
As social predators who use teeth in interactions and have the capacity to kill each other a stoic response to sudden pain would be stupid.
Adam
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10-01-2011, 09:51 PM
Originally Posted by Minihaha
Adam
I have asked you these question before but think you may have missed them ....can you think of any reason why someone would use 2 e collars on a dog at the same time and have you ever done this, if so why?
and a couple more questions based on your replies in another thread..
..does it matter where abouts on a dog you put the e collar, are some areas of the body more sensitive than others eliciting a bigger response to the shock,
..is it acceptable for a trainer to put an e collar on a dog near to its genitals and what could any trainer doing this be attempting to teach the dog .
Collar on each side of the neck might be used for left and right \(gundog sheep dog ect).
Also often used on high drive and high sensitive dogs doing protection work (malis) as the stim is spread out over a larger area, making it even softer.
Adam
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Location: UK
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10-01-2011, 09:51 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
A stim is a sudden sensation, hit the button the dog goes from nothing to stim!
Dogs are stoic to chronic pain/discomfort. Sudden pain will create a vocal response and movement.
As social predators who use teeth in interactions and have the capacity to kill each other a stoic response to sudden pain would be stupid.
Adam
- you do make me chuckle. From your own admission...you build up the stim....using low levels and working towards higher ones (till you can get a reaction from the dog?)
I am truly hoping you do not work the other way...??
So you start at a level the dog cannot feel.....the dog starts to feel it - maybe reacts in a way that we do not detect - blink of an eye etc.....and so, you begin to habitualise the dog to a) the circumstance (training set up/collar etc) and b) the sensation.
As to dogs and their reactions to pain - I have met dogs with massive scars due to not reacting to pain.
I think your experience is very limited.
I can only hope that you will, one day gain more experience and hopefully empathy for your subjects.
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10-01-2011, 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by MichaelM
I don't think it's a very good argument to equate all electric shock to pain:
It is possible that a low enough shock is delivered with enough control that it need not necessarily cause pain, and that it even goes unnoticed (e.g. a pacemaker).
I suppose then that gives rise to the following question:
Is it possible to interrupt a dog's behaviour (e.g. chase instinct) with a low enough shock that it doesn't cause pain?
I know that BenMcF thinks not, as her dog went through an electric fence to give chase, but then wouldn't come back through the fence.
I don't know the answer, and my inclination changes from day to day based on the behaviour of my own dog, sometimes I think yes, other times I agree with BenMcF. I do recognise though that it would be a massive temptaion for an owner to misuse an electric collar as a stress reaction.
I think the answer is yes, based on my experience with chasers I find the a two pronged approach works best
a, Condition the recall strongly away from the prey item first.
b, call off the chase with the dog at a distance and on linbe at first then move closer and take off the line.
With stock fences they hurt like hell but by the time the shock happens the dog is halfway through.
With regards to your last point.
My experience is the use of the e collar and improved responsiveness this generates reduces/elminates owner stress. So instead of standing watching the dog ignore you call and sniff/chase/fight the dog does it first time.
Adam
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10-01-2011, 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle
The difficulty is that we cannot ask the dogs.
IMO Adams theory is flawed as he seems to feel that dogs will only show pain with yelps/jumps etc.
Anyone who has taken the dog to the vet, or watched a nature programme has surely seen the pain that animals can work through without actually 'showing'.
We have had converstions on here about how different people feel pain - I HATE static shocks - and I get them off the van, when I am wearing my fleece - or off Siren (she does not react)....however- I do not scream in pain - I possibly wince, maybe that would equate to an ear flick in a dog? I don't know, but if they respond with an ear flick as I would with a flinch.....then IMO it probably hurts!
Adam
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10-01-2011, 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Next time I have a camera on me I will take an e collar out my pocket and you can see the dogs reactions!
Adam
I have see avoidance excitement due to e-collar use before - and I assume that would be the point you would like to make?.
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10-01-2011, 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by Lucky Star
Indeed!
When my dog is in full flow, you'd really have to give him one hell of a shock for him to take a blind bit of notice. Is that acceptable to you, to get him to comply?
You condition the response prior to the drive situation then use the collar/command to bring him out of early stage drive behaviour!
Adam
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10-01-2011, 10:00 PM
in debate, discusion whatever), any dog, human, whatever species can be stimulated in many ways. If something is for the good, whatever or how ever it is instilled/enforced then so be it. But naturally such devices are not known of of used, when does a dog, wolf, bear, sheep, cow, rat use any collar or otherwise? No offence to anyone(n am ignorant in lot of ways).
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10-01-2011, 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle
I think you will find it would be -
People who train this way are not interested in the Welfare of the dog - just the quick results for the owners.
However my main priority is the dogs quality of life.
Adam
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10-01-2011, 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by Azz
I actually find it very worrying - that despite having demonstrated that electric shock collars rely on pain, a
Btw can I ask all antis how much e collar training they have seen?
Adam