I take your point Wys ~ the same views would apply to banning any discussions of, e.g. child abuse.

It seems that the vast majority (if not all?) of the people that post on this forum, are very against any form of animal cruelty, & in particular, against the use of electric shocks to train dogs. So on this forum, AP will have a hard job trying to convince anyone.

But there are many people that will read posts, members & non-members, or may just have googled shock collars & come across this forum. The last thing we want is for a desperate dog owner to think that using an e-collar will solve their problems! So the more of us that refute AP's arguments, that show up the huge flaws in both his grasp of scientific learning theory & ability to make a logical argument, perhaps the less likely it will be that any desparate dog owners will try e-collars.

I think this thread has done that very well. It has high-lighted the cruelty to the dog, it has shown the flaws in AP's arguments, it has promoted the use of pos R as a kind & effective method.

But that's the only reason I can think of for continuing a discussion on e-collars ~ to let the anti-e-collar people have their say.

Actually, it does give AP something to do. If the ecollar thread lapses he pops up and hijacks other ones.
At least with this one it is pretty obvious that he`s not a dog trainer.

KW You know what they say, 'there is none so blind as those who will not see'. Adam has little empathy with dogs, I am not making a quick judgement here but base my opinion on his attitude when posting, the videos he posted and his affiliation to dubious e collar salesmen (evident from his willingness to speak 'their' actual words).

Whatever arguments however logical are put forward about the undesirability of using e collars Adam will refute them, it is in his interests to do so because until they are banned he is making a living out of their use.

I know - and I tried for months at a time with all sorts, and they even had a trainer out before I came along some good that did it and the good news is - and I do believe I said it in a previous post - I dont use it anymore - I've got it so he listens with treats (and the chain "fell off" in the woods)
But Tupac, unlike AP - I hated using the chain and used it against my better judgement and only until I got him onto treats and my voice alone - AP uses the E-collar with pleasure and will willingly stick one around someone else's dog in order to "train" it.

But Adam, not if you do it right as dogs learn by association....

Then they obviously havent done it well enough and are becoming impatient. Simply havent conditioned well enough for long enough in varying circumstances. People cant control the environment but they can choose where, when and how which means they can then limit the dogs chances of success or failure which is very important. So important that it means if they pay attention to that they wont need an E-collar and also that perhaps they should spend more time 'reading' their dog than damning its natural canine behaviours, if its obvious they wont handle a certain situation etc then dont set the dog up for failure in the first place and it wont then learn from the handler to ignore them.

Good post, the pertinant point for me is highlighted............when I chose to get a RR, I wanted an independant hound. I got that so why would I try and change what is his essencial make-up and try to turn him into a cowed robot. I work with him and his instincts which equals happy dog and happy owner.

And Tassle too!

Because if you lower the excitment (by lowering value of treats) but train excatly the same (rate of reinforment ect) you get stress signals.

Adam

Haven't seen the vid but probably same as me, its just better.

Adam

I'm still not getting it Kruse.

However if you lower the value of the reward (desrease excitment) they reappear.

Btw seeing as I'm not getting it why don't you do what a good dog trainer would do and make it easier?

As it is you keep giving the cue and getting the wrong response lol.

Adam

But we also can't assume that dogs arn't distressed by reward training and don't find aversive training relaxing!

Adam