This isn't what the alpha roll says to a dog though,

The alpha roll is based on wolf studies (outdated, flawed studies, as scientists who supported them now agree).
Firstly, one cannot extrapolate wolf studies to dogs, but even if we did, the alpha roll is usually done by wolves who are after seriously warning or killing other wolves.

In other circumstances, there is lots of posturing and the wolf offers the roll.

As I say, dogs are not wolves anyway, but I think it's awful if you've been told or read that alpha rolling says to a dog that he can trust you, because it actually says quite the opposite. As people who have been bitten doing it will tell you

Wys
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No problem for explaining I am not picking on you. We have all felt targeted for one reason or another on here, best not to take it personally and move on...in the next thread you'll be having a laugh with people.

I think you must have used force, quite a lot of it, with an anxious GSD that is jumping up, to get it into an alpha roll. I can't see that it could have been otherwise. I have seen CM alpha roll and he always seems to break into a sweat suggesting force is used. I do not have personal experience of alpha rolling (my dogs would think I was tickling them or having a TTouch session)but i do have experience of big dogs that are leaping around. No way could I alpha roll without force.

Why do you think clicker training is far removed from how a dog behaves naturally? You don't have to use clicker training to make a dog do 'tricks' you can use clicker training for absolutely anything at all. I have found clicker training makes my dog think for himself and i love to see that.

You didn't say what other methods you have used that you feel have dumbed your dog down?
Absolutely no need to apologise.
I've seen my dogs soft mouthing each other and it still looks painful...it isn't painful when they do it to me...but it has the potential to be.
Hmmmmm,...have you ever watched an episdoe of CM with the sound off? ALL of the episode. Watch a new episode and turn the volume off. Don't watch CM watch the dog.Watch the signals the dog is giving to CM...watch how the dog is trying to communicate with him but is ignored.
Indeed.
Before you watch the CM episode without sound...read that book. I personally think everyone with a dog should read it. It is a total must have if you want to understand what your dog is saying to you...

Re. `Alpha Roll (gosh don`t these men love their macho terminology)
Physically overpowering an animal and rendering it helpless does not reassure it. Just for a minute, stop thinking of your dog as a hairy person and imagine you don`t have language or theories. You react to what happens. You learn by doing. A big creature forces you down into a position where you are helpless. How do you feel?
If you take away the anthropomorphism and mystical mind cr*p, dogs are pretty easy to figure out. They only have so many responses open to them. In the weight of overwhelming power (yours) they basically lie back and let it come. They have no other option. Your next move might be to kill them or give them a biscuit, but they have no choice. This is called learned helplessness. Used to be called breaking their spirit.

Great post.

I really think that some people are either blind due to their 'love and admiration' for CM or have absolutely no idea about dog behaviour and body language, more than likely both!


So you alpha roll with out touching then? How would you feel if I pinned you to the floor with sufficient force so that you couldn't get up? Nothing calm there!

Then it is clear you do not have a clue how a dog learns. Probably it is because you are unable to clicker train correctly with nanosecond timing that you don't like it. People don't like things they don't understand.

So you would be my best buddy if I punched you then?

Picture of Shadow from CM programme, dog collapsed shortly after this with a blue tongue resulting from his air supply being cut off due to CM's methods. Could the CM lovers explain what CM is doing if he isn't string this dog up who is fighting for life (if you see the rest of the programme.

I don't thing any of you replied to the last post I put with all this on.
To be honest I am totally disgusted that there are some people who see nothing wrong with kicking, poking, jabbing, pinning, rolling, shocking and stringing up dogs in the name of training.
NG also did not show an episode I wanted to watch regarding Teddy the Poodle that apprently is quite disturbing and was due to be shown on Friday but wasn't. That too was a horrfying incident with a very frightened dog and there is no video link on the NG website either, much like they have removed the one of Shadow.
Becky

last nights show featured a dog (i can't remember his breed) but i think his name was jonbet, i maybe wrong. he belonged to an x actor who'd had cancer and his wife. this guy would basically go round the neighbourhood rescuing stray dogs and rehoming them. he had been successful until he found this dog. the dog was red in colour, similar to a spitz.

the dog was very aggressive in the house although fine outside. i would assume something major had happened to him indoors at some point.

cm goaded the dog into an aggressive reaction and then it was a virtual repeat of the shadow situation. the dog was strung up repeatedly.

the end result was a terrified dog fighting to breath. his eyes were bloodshot and he was in complete fear submission. cm then made the owner hold the dog under the arms in order to make him submit further. kind of like a hugging him from behind. this only served to make the dog fight again and he was pinned to the floor until he gave in. whilst this horrific event was going on, cm was asking the wife to 'big up' her husband in order to make him feel powerful.

i found the whole thing deeply distressing and of course they ended up with a dog who will never forget that traumatic event and must feel deep distrust and fear towards his owners.

claireanddaisy is spot on with what she said. the dogs spirit was broken by cm and the fact that his fans find that acceptable absolutely beggars belief.

No comparison at all, and its sad you cant see this.

Your son, I take it will be under 2 if still in nappies, will have from the day he was born had the comfort of you picking him up, holding him close, changing his nappies, he will know that you laying him down on his back to change his nappy, will be accompanied with coo`s and cuddles...you will over time have had to restrain him, pick him up, carry him around..but in his young life he will never have felt at any time concern or not know what you are doing, he will have by now learnt to communicate with you (speak English)

The GSD....will have none of the benifit of the above... he she will not be used to being picked up, held close, cuddles on the floor... all the things your child will know.


She is a nervous young dog, one who seeks reassurance, and what does she get... someone who will not be as strong as her, manhandle her to the ground lay on top of her, and keep her from moving..........what is she thinking, "Oh its OK " THEY MEAN ME NO HARM!!!!!!

My guess is she would be shell shocked, in fear for her life, she would have no clue as to why you just did that.

OK , you got results, she stopped jumping up, so would I, if that was the treatment I got.

Please give some thought as to what has been said, on here.... the end results dont allow justify the means...


You may have been extremely calm when you Alpha rolled the dog, but just think, what would your child do , if a(calm) stranger picked him up, did not speak , but forced him to the ground to change his nappy..!!!!!!!!!


There is your comparison... is it the same,,I guess you know the answer

I think it's both. I know that when I heard and watched these methods they seemed to make so much sense as it was "mimicing" a natural behaviour that the dog would understand. You then see these techniques working and think it's amazing and must be right. It's easy to see why people support CM and the methods when they appear to work.
It's only when things go wrong that you realise and begin to look and educate yourself more about canine behaviour and then realise how wrong you were. This is my experience. I have learnt such a lot from what I did wrong (following the rank reduction/ dominance methods) and now have a much better understanding of dog behaviour than I did this time 12 months ago. It's a shame it came too late for my last dog, but my current girl has the benefit.
I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination and will never profess to be. It's all a constant learning curve. I just hope you don't find out the hard way.

Agree, it is very upsetting to those of us that can see the truth. It's downright depressing in fact.

Here is a comment on the episode you refer to, with Jonbee. I agree that, as usual, CM was after submission only, regardless - this is what he is always after, and this is why he goads dogs to fight him, so he can then string them up. He can then gain the "submission" - frankly, he's a bully and much worse that i can't say on here. Maybe he's a bit small in one of his departments.

http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm

Refers to a significant and dangerous struggle where the dog appears to urinate

Wys
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Also there is the Milgram effect, where someone in apparent authority can tell you do do something and you do it because they are the authority figure.

Some good articles on this Milgram experiment, why it was done (it involved getting ordinary people to apparently "shock" others, to the point of death I believe).

The same thing happens very often in dog training.
I myself was "Milgrammed" when Barbara Woodhouse was on tv and I thought that was what you had to do. I used the choke chain very harshly on my best friends

We have to learn and educate ourselves, because the tv dog trainers will short change us for the most part. Not all of them, but most.

We have to remember that they are very often chosen for confrontation, drama, excitement, looks, etc and not for dog training or behaviour knowledge!

Wys
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