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Location: East Midlands, UK
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01-02-2010, 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by wolfdogowner 
If you accept that wolves and dogs are different then the Czech and Saarloos are entre les deux, they do contain wolf genes that are expressed in both appearance and behaviour to a greater or lesser degree. Both are accepted dog breeds. Both breeds differ in behaviour. As breeds they breed true to type, unlike the type of wolf-dog generally referred to in The USA, which can be any mix and can exhibit any variation of behaviour.
There has never been any plan to free wolves into the wilds of the UK but there has been a proposal to build a 50,000 acre fenced park in Scotland at the Allerdale Estate. This would create a unique attraction in Europe though there has been much opposition to this by groups like the Ramblers, who feel that the fencing impinges upon their liberties. Currently the Estate is building a couple of small wolf enclosures for privileged guests of the Estate so they can gawp at a few captive wild animals.
Unfortunately man is incapable of treading lightly and is obliged by his own greed to rip up the earth and exploit it for his own pathetic gain.
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Location: london, UK
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01-02-2010, 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by aerolor
I do accept that wolves and dogs are different - evolution has moulded them so and they have been very successful (by this I mean time, adaptation, selection and breeding usually for a purpose desired by men). I do not know much about Czechs and Sarloos - I know that they are classified as dogs and are different "breeds" from each other. I understand that their "wolf" blood is much fresher than more established breeds and it is a very interesting subject, but I do not know if they are still, or should remain "betwixt and between" as you mention. I would prefer that they are dogs. I think you have chosen the more attractive breed with your Sarloos, although I am sure someone will disagree.
50,000 acres does not seem very much to have very many wolves in Scotland and I sincerely hope it does not happen.
You are right, history seems to have proved that man is incapable of treading lightly, but he is capable of thinking about what he is doing and the consequences. I myself have done my fair share of being greedy and exploiting for gain. (Gotta survive). Guilty yer 'onner !! - but I am going into rehab. to see if I can learn to modify it.
By the way it has been said that if the dog as a species were to return to the wild (and enough could survive long enough) it would take very few "dog" generations - only 8 or 10 I think, for them to turn, back into a "type" of wolf (albeit probably a funny looking one). What would it be feral dog or wolf ? - What do you think ? Should we try it up in Scotland - would it earn us a buck or two ? and would anyone be interested in paying to have a look at them ?
As far as I am aware, studies indicate that dogs become feral but do not revert to wolves or wolf like behaviour: having made a genetic transition. Given enough time who knows how they would develop?
As for which is better a Czech or a Saarloos, I have heard all the arguments. I am a big fan of both breeds and was very tempted with a Czech pup when I first looked. I have no regrets on my choice though and they have taught me a lot, cost me a lot of money and lost me friends and meant I had to move house, but hey, I can't say life is dull with them around!
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Location: london, UK
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01-02-2010, 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
Thanks for that Wolfdog, this is what I was thinking of. I think a 50,000 acre fenced park sounds like a pretty good idea. Perhaps the protesting Ramblers could be let loose inside the park, and given a sporting chance to test their survival capabilities vis a vis Mr Woluf !!
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Location: East Midlands, UK
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01-02-2010, 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by wolfdogowner
For Scotland; I think it's probable that Paul Lister, the owner of Alladale, has had a financial awakening of late and his plans to build a safari park of once native predators (wolves, bear, Lynx) is being looked at with caution. I was quite interested in the concept to start with, as it would be fairly unique but would wonder how well a bunch of predators could live together in the confines of a fenced park and suspect wildlife 'management' then becomes necessary. The re-introduction of wolves into the crowded British Isles is unlikely at best. My personal opinion is that we should concentrate of preventing the killing of wild wolves elsewhere in Europe rather than waste time with introduction. If the European countries would uphold the Bern Convention that they signed then that would be huge progress.
As far as I am aware, studies indicate that dogs become feral but do not revert to wolves or wolf like behaviour: having made a genetic transition. Given enough time who knows how they would develop?
As for which is better a Czech or a Saarloos, I have heard all the arguments. I am a big fan of both breeds and was very tempted with a Czech pup when I first looked. I have no regrets on my choice though and they have taught me a lot, cost me a lot of money and lost me friends and meant I had to move house, but hey, I can't say life is dull with them around!
As far as dogs going feral, it is a subject that I have looked at with interest, and come to the conclusion that in the case of dogs going bush around human conurbations ... where, for instance, they may be able to scavange on rubbish tips ... they they probably don't form packs, and don't live in a way that could be recognised as being "wolf". But in an area where there are no humans and their rubbish to scavange from, it would seem that dogs would indeed form packs given the opportunity, and one presumes over decades would effectively become "wolves" again. Without man's involvement in any way, nature always wins.
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Location: East Midlands, UK
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01-02-2010, 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by wolfdogowner
The though had crossed my mind
Sadly, they would be quite safe as bipedal animals don't feature on Mr Wolf's menu!!I really am only joking ... before I get attacked by well meaning Ramblers !!
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Location: london, UK
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01-02-2010, 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
No, what I meant to say was that they are hard-wired after a certain age/or when their eyes open. The Eskimos used to take 1 wolf cub from a den of wild wolves, always leaving at least 2, never leaving none or just 1 on its own ... before the eyes opened, because they knew that if the first thing that wolf cub saw when his eyes opened was a human, then they would be able to "tame" that wolf cub. However, if they waited until the eyes were fully opened, and then took a cub, that cub would never truly be "tame". This is what I meant, but obviously did not explain it very well. You can "over-ride" the wiring if you have your wolfcub at a young enough age. For instance, to take Shaun Ellis's captive bred wolves, any cubs bred at Combe Martin will not be fearful of man because they will have seen Shaun and other humans from the moment their eyes opened. I don't know whether Shaun handles his cubs from birth, but if he does then he is on a winner all the way, his wolves will be aloof towards humans, but not fearful, just wary of strangers, but as loving and playful as any labrador with their human "pack".
I take your point about David Mech, but so far my friend in the States has proved otherwise ... as have many other wolf owners in the States. Do we know how old David Mech's wolf was when he first had it? If it was older than 3 weeks, then he was almost certainly doomed to fail.
Yes: Shaun Ellis removed the pups from their mother at an early age for a variety of reasons. They grew up exclusively with him, but they are NOT Labradors. They are extremely powerful animals and are driven by intense emotion that can flip to the polar opposite in a nanosecond. Sure they love human visitors.
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Location: UK
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Posts: 1,114
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01-02-2010, 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by Tupacs2legs
yip! me
those saarloos are related to heffalumps with those ears i know someone
i see csv's as a dog breed not a pet wolf,albeit sometimes a very raw one
Did my post also turn bits red - I don't remember doing it - does the moderator do this ?
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Location: london, UK
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01-02-2010, 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by Tupacs2legs
those saarloos are related to heffalumps with those ears
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Location: london.uk
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01-02-2010, 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by aerolor
Can you tell me what a csv is Tupacs2legs - I don't know all the names.
Did my post also turn bits red - I don't remember doing it - does the moderator do this ?
red bits on posts? i dont know what you mean
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Location: london.uk
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01-02-2010, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by wolfdogowner
Watch it. We like ears
i reckon csv's are related to kangaroos
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