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Wysiwyg
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07-07-2010, 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
I've never heard that statement before Wyswigy. Sciene tends to steer away from talk of emotions. I think thats your interputation of the training.
It was based on experiments done, (sadly) on rats and dogs. (Actually, science doesn't steer away from emotions. For example, there has been much discussion over the last x number of years about animals and basic and other emotions, and if Man is the only one who can experience them. See Panksepp for example).

Re the avoidance learning, you can look it up on the net. In fact I've found you a basic on Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

"This theory was originally established to explain learning in discriminated avoidance learning. It assumes two processes to take place. a) Classical conditioning of fear. During the first trials of the training, the organism experiences both CS and aversive US (escape-trials). The theory assumed that during those trials classical conditioning takes place by pairing the CS with the US. Because of the aversive nature of the US the CS is supposed to elicit a conditioned emotional reaction (CER) - fear. In classical conditioning, presenting a CS conditioned with an aversive US disrupts the organism's ongoing behavior. b) Reinforcement of the operant response by fear-reduction. Because during the first process, the CS signaling the aversive US has itself become aversive by eliciting fear in the organism, reducing this unpleasant emotional reaction serves to motivate the operant response. The organism learns to make the response during the US, thus terminating the aversive internal reaction elicited by the CS. An important aspect of this theory is that the term "Avoidance" does not really describe what the organism is doing. It does not "avoid" the aversive US in the sense of anticipating it. Rather the organism escapes an aversive internal state, caused by the CS".

It's all there in the science, Adam

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Adam P
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07-07-2010, 09:31 PM
But they used strong aversives that illicted a fear response, I'm using aversives that don't because they are very mild!

Adam
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Wysiwyg
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07-07-2010, 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Why? The dog was terrified of the people who'd rescued her (and anyone else) ...Adam
But you talk as if that's the only option. It clearly is not.

I've helped dogs who were terrified too. But I don't use a shock collar to do it.

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Wysiwyg
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07-07-2010, 09:34 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
But they used strong aversives that illicted a fear response, I'm using aversives that don't because they are very mild!

Adam
Adam, your response does not negate the way the learning works. They are still aversives, whatever. The fear response still has to be classically conditioned and so on.
Otherwise you cannot call it escape/avoidance etc.

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Krusewalker
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07-07-2010, 09:43 PM
too much rigid learning theory for my taste

too reductive, too lab rat, not enough breath of life.

OC can be the stove that reduces the essence of the dog.
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Wysiwyg
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07-07-2010, 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
too much rigid learning theory for my taste

too reductive, too lab rat, not enough breath of life.

OC can be the stove that reduces the essence of the dog.


and how are you Krusewalker?

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Krusewalker
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07-07-2010, 09:50 PM
isy wysy very busy
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Wysiwyg
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07-07-2010, 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
isy wysy very busy
did you go to Ian Dunbar's weekend?

sounds as if you did lol

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Krusewalker
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07-07-2010, 09:58 PM
no

i thought he had retired!
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Wysiwyg
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07-07-2010, 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
no

i thought he had retired!
No, he came back just the other weekend, bless him! can't keep a good 'un down
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