IT may be play bowing etc..UNTIL the sheep tries to run away from him and he takes a mouthful to stop it!!!

It is a cross made up from TWO dogs with high prey drive!! What makes you think it will have been bred out in such a short time???

I definately wouldn't use an ecollar - or cesar milans methods come to that!

Out of interest, i looked up the price of the livestock workshops. The company of animals one is an intensive four hour workshop with only four dogs allowed per specialist instructor, it costs £117.50.

I had a look on the net for ecollars and the workshop was cheaper buy at least £40.

Sorry Sali, just seen the post saying you couldn't afford an ecollar....thought it was interesting the comparison between the two prices though.

Maybe you could practice the long line training for a while, if it doesn't work you might decide its worth saving up for the workshop - might save vets bills in the future!

Was trying to to make that not sound patrionising, hope you don't take it that way - i know i couldn't afford the work shop without saving up a bit!

my goodness you`ve got some `hard` sheep up there! You mean they just stand there? In my experience sheep would be legging it in a panic across the field - that`s how sheepdogs move them - they run away from dogs!
This may sound harsh, but if it were my dog I wouldn`t let him off lead round livestock at all.

Thank you Moobli....and she knows as my farmer friend does.

Not being a party pooper here, but as a owner of 3 BC's...one of which has strong and I mean strong herding instincts, I would suggest you used a extremely long training lead, I got one of 40ft, although my son has swiped it off me for his BC.....anyway, I wouldn't walk your dog without until you know he has got past his 'playing with the sheep' stage, playing is ok, but in my experience of dogs, playing (especially if something runs) can turn into 'hunt mode' extremely quickly, as quick as batting you eyelid.
We all know about farmer shooting dogs whether play or not, that is what happens, but once the change from play turns to kill, there will be NO going back.
Hope you can get it sorted, but practically, I'd stick to the place you have found, and when walking amongst livestock...use the long training lead. xxxxxxx

Again, I agree - which is why I'm keeping him on lead.

This is not how it worked. The idea was for Spike to stay within a reasonable distance from me - a couple of yards - and to keep his focus on ME without being distracted by sheep. He was given a command to stay close and if he started to ignore me or shift his focus too much onto the sheep, the e-collar was used to remind him what he should be focussed on.

In this way, the e-collar was not used as a punishment for chasing sheep, but as an aid to discipline him whenever he didn't respond to my commands. Punishment and discipline are not quite the same thing.


As I said before:

Spike showed NO signs of being in pain at all. I tried the collar on myself first and it didn't hurt me. It felt like a tens machine or one of those exercise pads or the kind of mild static shock you get when you touch a metal object.

It wasn't used to hurt him - it was used in the same way you would use a rattle bottle or check chain - to snap his focus back on to ME when he was getting too distracted.

He hasn't had the opportunity to be near livestock since the session with the e-collar so I don't know that he IS back to square one.

It worked the opposite way during the session I had. I never used a setting higher than I had used on myself and everytime he responded the setting was turned down so that after about three or four times of using it, we only had to use 'vibrate' (which felt like a mobile phone vibration). This was enough to keep him focussed on staying close to me. After a couple of times using the vibrate, he ignored the sheep totally and responded to me every time.

The sheep HAVE been running away from him - he has never shown any signs of aggression towards livestock.

I'm not saying it's been 'bred out', but that I believe Spike's chasing has very quickly become conditioned behaviour because he has already experienced the 'fun' he got from chasing. I believe this behaviour came from over-excited playfulness reinforced by his 'fun' experiences rather than 'prey drive' which I see as a more aggressive and innate urge. He doesn't go for squirrels, cats or cuddly toys and I've never seen him try to 'kill' anything (alive or not) by shaking it like dogs do with their 'prey'.


I believe he can because the session with the e-collar worked so well. Within 20 minutes he was walking close to me and listening every time I spoke to him - even with the distraction of there being sheep around. He used to be the same with dogs - getting so involved in chasing and playing with them that his recall went out of the window. After the session, his recall in those situations improved dramatically. I believe that with more training, he CAN be trained to listen even though there are distractions (such as nearby livestock).

The e-collar served as a remotely controlled aid to discipline - like a check chain you can use off-lead and at a distance. If you don't believe in discipline for dogs and think check chains are cruel, then the e-collar is obviously not for you but that's not what this thread is about. As with any behaviour I believe it's a good idea to try SEVERAL different ways to train your dog and wanted to find out about ANYthing I could do to help with this. Although I believe discipline is very important to dogs(particularly in this situation), I ALSO want to try the coersive methods suggested (yes - I'm prepared to use bribery! lol) ALONGSIDE OF the disciplinary ones. Since I can't afford an e-collar anyway, the other methods are things I can do to help and be getting on with for free.

It only takes a second for the play to change..its like murderers aren't murderers until they kill for the first time


My dogs don't shake things and they don't get the opportunity to "go" for anything..BUT I KNOW they have prey drive because its IN their breed...its a breed TRAIT..

My dogs don't "go" for my cat because they were brought up with them..but any other cat who dares to enter the garden is fair game..and I have no doubt if they caught it..then it would not be played with...(or maybe it would..as a tuggy toy betweent them!!)

Prey drive is prey drive..I hope your dog doesn't experience the worst result because you don't beleive it is

I really do hope you manage to train him out of this behaviour, but I am afraid I wouldn't be too optimistic. Once a dog has experienced the thrill of the chase, it is a very hard "high" for an owner to beat.

As you have found somewhere safe to walk, I would say walk there and let your dogs have a good run off lead, and then if you are in the countryside where you may come across sheep, keep your dogs on leads or a long line.

I have sympathy with you as I have experienced both sides. My first dog was a sheep chaser and I desperately tried to train her out of it, but she had a very strong prey drive and I never managed to retrain her before she was shot by a farmer (and she was just running in the field, not attacking sheep at the time) I would not wish this experience on anyone who loves their dog - the pain, shock and guilt are very hard to come to terms with.

I now live on a hill sheep farm in Scotland and one of our sheep was recently attacked by a dog and had her face ripped open/skull crushed ... it was a horrendous injury and she had to be humanely destroyed to save her suffering. It could so easily have been prevented if the dog's owner had kept it on a lead.

My father-in-law has a farm in Yorkshire and his neighbour (also a farmer) recently shot two dogs in separate incidents who were chasing his sheep (who were heavily pregnant at the time) ... so believe me, it does happen. As I know only too well, it just is not worth the risk (to both dog and sheep).

I understand what you are trying to say with regard the collar training.

However, the same things that have been said over again still apply, in that, regardless of what he DID with the collar ON, it doesn't work when the collar is OFF, and no offence intended, but I think you are missing the importance of that.

Whether he stayed 2 yards from you, danced around, chased sheep or herded emus when he had the collar on, the point is, that his prey drive is kicking in now it's off, meaning that he only responded to the collar because he had no choice, no because he wanted to or because he was being trained.

A collar is a negative association, which believe it or not often fuels dogs to want 'it' more.

That's why so many people advise positive reinforcement instead.

Regardless of how painless you say the collar is to him, it obviously had a horrible feel for him, or he would have continued to chase sheep as he does now.

My point being, that the collar is forcing him to ignore his instincts, which is not natural for any dog if it's that intense and I dont feel any other form of training would possibly be strong enough to have the same effect as the collar.

If you have now found somewhere to run him safely away from sheep, then this issue should no longer be a problem.

If you live so close to so many sheep, did you not consider prey drive before you bought him ?

As I have said before (several times), since the third time he chased livestock I have never let him off lead anywhere near livestock, apart from the e-collar training session.