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Adam P
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01-11-2010, 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Problem is, the ecollar supporters prefer to think it was poorly done, and use excuses such as "it's the wrong collar" when the point is that it was an ecollar, and this is how some dogs are currently being trained (or were at the time of the study). Sometimes they even say that "we are not told what collar it was, therefore the whole study is wrong and we are not listening" la la la (hands over ears and eyes ).

Nothing else really matters.

Wys
x
Thing is I just don't care. Because its not relevant to what I do.
I could provide reems of research saying my way was right and most on here would deny it, wether thats because of their opinion on the training or me is debateable lol.

I tend to base my opinions on what I've experienced and those around me. I find its far better to investigate what works for you than anything artifical.



Re study

I agree its not about dominance as such and is open (like anything) to critisim but thats not my problem.

Adam
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Tassle
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01-11-2010, 01:00 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Thing is I just don't care. Because its not relevant to what I do.

Its not relevant to what you do - or its not relevant to what you believe?
You believe e-collars do not cause pain to dogs - NO study can say that this is true or not. All that can be said is that different animals feel pain in different ways and there are lots of factors that determine what pain is 'felt'.
I believe that e-collars hurt. (for reference these were PAC collars) that is based on MY experience of what I have felt and observed


I could provide reems of research saying my way was right and most on here would deny it, wether thats because of their opinion on the training or me is debateable lol.

I find it hard to believe anyone has any research to say there particular way of training is right....you may have research to support that what you do works....but that is a very different thing. I expect anyone could dig up research saying what they do works....

I tend to base my opinions on what I've experienced and those around me. I find its far better to investigate what works for you than anything artifical.

I would agree.....but I think you have to look at more than the end result.

Re study

I agree its not about dominance as such and is open (like anything) to critisim but thats not my problem.

Adam
.............
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Adam P
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01-11-2010, 01:14 PM
Tassle

With regards to hurt, it is accepted that if an dog experiences sudden pain (e:g you press the button and it hurts) it will vocalise/jump/move away from the area.
I,ve not seen this occur, certainly if it was happening I would imagine owners would sack me on the spot!

Pac are good collars, but I only have experience of the newer models, I don't know what the old ones are like.
The ones I have used recently haven't caused the reaction associated with pain.

Adam
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Crysania
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01-11-2010, 01:17 PM
Ok Adam now I KNOW you're lying. Or just yanking everyone's chains. You simply CANNOT be for real.

Nearly every single dog I've seen on a shock collar has jumped or yelped or tried to run when the collar went off. And sometimes I didn't even realize what was happening. One dog this summer was running toward us when it suddenly stopped and yelped. I thought the dog had hurt itself and started coming over when the owner proudly held up her little remote and said "e-collar!" She was trying to teach the dog recall, which wasn't working as the dog simply stopped or ran in a different direction yelping.
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Adam P
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01-11-2010, 01:23 PM
Have you seen me train?

Have you seen any of the videos (of other people as well) I've put up training with an e collar?

Adam
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Crysania
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01-11-2010, 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Have you seen me train?

Have you seen any of the videos (of other people as well) I've put up training with an e collar?

Adam
I've not seen you train. I'm not even sure you really do. I've seen plenty of other e-collar videos and have been pretty horrified at the body language of the dogs involved.
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Wysiwyg
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01-11-2010, 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by wilbar View Post
That's interesting Wys. Yes the study was by Spanish students & there were 711 dogs in the survey. But how this paper could possibly be used to support dominance & the use of punishment is beyond me. It's got nothing to do with dominance or punishment ~ it's all to do with trying to define the characteristics/causes of territorial aggression.

But the conclusion from this study (it is literally this one sentence) says "Territorial aggression depends on modifiable factors connected to the owner (environmental factors) an non-modifiable factors connected to the dog."


I think it's the names that made me sit up, I wonder if it's not the same study? I'd have to sit and read it properly and find the other one to be sure, but I am pretty sure it's the same "lot"

Wys
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Wysiwyg
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01-11-2010, 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Tassle

With regards to hurt, it is accepted that if an dog experiences sudden pain (e:g you press the button and it hurts) it will vocalise/jump/move away from the area.
I,ve not seen this occur, certainly if it was happening I would imagine owners would sack me on the spot!

...
I've seen it unfortunately just out and about (one memorable one, was an owner trying to stop collie chasing squirrels - no other training evidence around, and certainly no thought of the dog's being given any alternative. So the dog, if it did ever stop, would have not had any other thing to chase, she just wanted it to stop
And yes, it was yelping. Horrid.

Wys
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Tassle
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01-11-2010, 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Tassle

With regards to hurt, it is accepted that if an dog experiences sudden pain (e:g you press the button and it hurts) it will vocalise/jump/move away from the area.
I,ve not seen this occur, certainly if it was happening I would imagine owners would sack me on the spot!

No - that is what is accepted by people who do not know better. Fro someone who practices behaviour rehab, I would expect awareness of a hell of a lot more than vocalisations as a way of expressing pain or fear.

Pac are good collars, but I only have experience of the newer models, I don't know what the old ones are like.
The ones I have used recently haven't caused the reaction associated with pain.

Adam
This would have been about 7 years ago.
But again - reactions for pain can be minimal and very dependent on the animals past experiences.
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Adam P
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01-11-2010, 05:15 PM
Tbh 7 yrs is ages in e collars.

There are more ways to express pain, but in this scenario when we know excatly when the ''pain'' is delivered and the dog is unfamilar with it I think the ones listed are most likely.

Re owners, most of my clients have had different trainers involved before, they and the dogs have been around a bit in terms of training. I'm not targeting the idiot with the status dog, neither am I targetting first time owners. Most of my clients are experienced dog owners.

Adam
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